Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Welcome everyone and thanks for joining us on this episode of The Culture. Joining us today all the way from London, we’re chatting with Charlie Code and we’re going to be talking about technology’s role in company culture strategy. So Charlie, thanks for joining us today.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): Good morning from an afternoon in London. Hi

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah, we were just chatting with Charlie and he just had a cup of tea. We said we should have done that as well, but we’d love to hear a little bit more about Charlie.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): So Charlie Code is the founder of Culture 15, a SAS platform that helps organizations measure and manage culture as a driver of performance. We love the data, so we’re excited to get into this conversation. With a background in the executive leadership at GE, and over a decade in culture consulting, Charlie brings deep expertise in aligning culture with strategy.  Since launching Culture 15, he’s helped more than 55 companies embed culture into business success. A thought leader and London Business School guest lecturer, Charlie champions culture as a business priority, not just a priority. Love that really sets the tone as far as culture is not just. It does dramatically and directly affect business. So, thanks for being here, Charlie.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): I’m right.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah, tell us a little bit more about yourself on the personal side as well as…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): what led you to be in space.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): 

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): Thank you and thank you both. It’s exciting to be here because to find people who seek the link between business success and culture is part of a growing movement. So, I’m pleased to be asked to be on the podcast. personal background, Christie, you gave the headlines. so maybe I’ll add a little bit of and professional backgrounds tend to look sort of very neat and ordered in retrospect, but as you’re living through them, it never quite seems that way. But as you said, I spent my 20ies in the army, both in the UK and Australia.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): spent an 11-year career with General Electric an American institution or at least was on both the manufacturing and the financial services side and I ended up living in the Czech Republic in Prague which was beautiful with my family and running a consumer finance business for the Czech Republic on its own. about $500 million in its revenue. Quite a substantial business but part of a much bigger engine.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): and I had a number of insights at the time and I’ll come to the sort of the drivers and the rationale in a second but that led me to leaving my corporate career and focusing solely on linking together strategic intentions in business and…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Come on.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): cultural execution or strategy and execution and the bridge between those two things really is cultural is how people behave what the mindsets are in the business and how they are common and threaded through particularly international businesses so ones that have operations in different countries and therefore have the basis of different national cultures to work from and I’ve been spending as you said the last 15 years of my life focused solely on this problem. How do you intentionally and…

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): much more deliberately put culture at the heart of business performance. On the personal side, I live in London. I’m speaking to you from Leafy Richmond, which if you watch Ted Lasso, everybody will be familiar with. In fact, the Ted Lasso film set is actually outside my window here. but I won’t distract the podcast from that.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Wow.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): That’s awesome.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): So I live right by Richmond Park. I’m a runner. and just a little bit of personal background and it’s linked to some of the work,…

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): but I’ve become fascinated with learning new things. The older I get, the more interested I am about actually what it takes to be on the steepest part of the learning curve. So over the last 10 years or…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Mhm. Whoa.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): so have challenged myself to take up a new hobby every year and I rather enjoy being a rather incompetent beginner at things but I have therefore become a surfer. I practice yoga. I keep bees.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): And my latest thing is competition aerobatics which really does challenge me a lot. And in fact we had our first competition yesterday.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Holy cow.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): So I’m still putting myself back together after that.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): How’d it go?

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): I’t Success number one. I didn’t break any rules and embarrass Success number two. And I think I was credible. So it was my first competition at a new level. So I was very challenged. But that’s the point is I think we become very established in our thinking and behaviors personally and professionally and organizations are the same to bring it to culture.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): So a lot of it is how do you create a habit of learning personally but also a habit of learning in an organization. How do you create the expectation that leaders are always unlearning and learning as they go through their career. So there’s a link to that. So that’s a little bit about me personally as well.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): How…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): how do you balance so many hobbies? That’s amazing. Okay.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): And it does then challenge you to be very very efficient. I don’t think so much about time but I think about energy. So I think we as people squander energy in enormous amounts and I think time is not nearly as linear as we think if you focus on energy. So I’ve sort of cleaned up my life and I focus now much more on how I can optimize the amount of energy I’ve got on a daily basis but also how I use it. So you’ll be surprised…

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): what you can achieve if you start to really line things up for it. But that’s probably another episode.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah, you’re fascinating me.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): I think you have a very interesting perspective on the world and that will for sure be helpful to our listeners on a more broader level. So yeah, that’s very So Charlie, as we take this conversation a little deeper here, let’s start with the heart of the topic.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Tell us from your perspective what’s the business case for investing in culture strategy.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): This is…

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): where it all starts. So, as I said, I spent probably the most formative part of my professional career in GE, which at the time under initially Jack Welsh and then Jeff Emolds was very much a leadership company and it had a real ethos around operational rigor and a metrics-based decision- making.  I remember when I was very very new in the company, I went into the operation director of the division I was in his whiteboard in his office and it said at the top in God we trust but everybody else brings data and that has really stuck with me and it was how G was run and yet it had the rather lazy linkage between a sort of loose values set and no management rigor behind it.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): And so operational processes and performance and commercial performance was measured very rigorously and obviously you’ll all be familiar with P&L statements, balance sheets and cash flow forecasts but there was no corresponding data and rigor around culture and that’s at the heart of really what I’m trying to go after which is if you believe culture is critical to success and the missing link between strategy and results which I believe it is then  you need to be measuring it and managing it as rigorously as you do the other metrics. And arguably, I’d say the financial and operational KPIs are lagging indicators for organizational performance. Whereas a culture metric is a leading indicator for how things get done. So that’s the sort of rationale that’s the problem statement.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): what you asked was how do you do it or what’s know the business case for it is quite simple is if you can create that framework then you have your hand on a lever which so far has been out of reach for most organizations and the hypothesis I’ve started with and I continue to develop but I’ve not moved off which is organizations are insufficiently accurate about the culture that they want and they are insufficiently accurate in understanding the culture they  have and therefore it’s left to local manager preference. It’s left to sort of leader personalities and it’s left to the rather dreary business of annual leadership conferences and setpiece engagement activities, engagement metrics which don’t give you the answer. and sort of what I call mousemax and mugs, right, which is a bit of a sort of communication campaign around culture. None of which really changes the way people think and behave.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): So if the business case is if you can actually create that rigor and…

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): put a set of management KPIs and metrics alongside the financial ones then you’re working on both sides of your brain both sides of the organization and you’re going to be much more able to shorten the line between strategy and the results.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah. yeah.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): I think it’s very much essential to business because it’s the people that are doing all the things to make the business run. And so when we’re looking at that P&L statement or other financial reports, those are 100% connected to how individuals are behaving within an organization.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): So measuring the health of the relationships and the experiences that the team is having is definitely correlating with the business performance. So I think you’re spot on right there. Yeah. And leaders and employees, they have to constantly tie it to that bottom line. Why are we putting money into this?

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): What are our results going to be? and to get any buy in and buy in is so important for any endeavor. So Mhm.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): I’d be even more specific…

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): though to what you said, Matt, and I think culture has a positioning problem. It has a reputational problem actually in that most people have a sort of assumed relationship with culture, which is how people are feeling. What’s the vibe around here? and you mentioned it, what are the relationships around here? You will often see culture described as an iceberg, the metaphor of an iceberg where on the visible part of an iceberg is the minority, but it’s really sort of how decisions get made,…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Mhm.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): how people behave, and how work gets done. And everything else that’s in brackets more important lives below the water, underneath the iceberg. I think that’s a really really unhelpful metaphor.  And so because it sort of positions culture in the underlying motivations of people. And I would argue that’s completely irrelevant. What matters is how you behave when you’re at work.  I don’t really care whether you’re a mass murderer at heart, but if you behave in a way that’s collaborative, decisive, and you distribute decision-making around the organization in the way that we have intentionally decided to do, you’re behaving in a way that’s contingent with the cult, contiguous with the culture.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): So I take the view that actually culture needs to be subtly repositioned away from the sort of soft, fluffy, intangible feeling zone into the more intentional operational area of how does work get done? And we’ll go on a little bit in a moment to talk about how you make culture manageable and measurable in that way. But that’s the fundamental mental shift. It’s actually about how people behave. Our CEO of our clients has this wonderful phrase and we’ll come to the difficulty of values and the weaknesses that values have in this context. He said no one experiences your values. They only experience your behaviors. So stop talking about values and start talking about behaviors.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): and the really nice thing about it is it takes it away from a sort of rather abstract but also rather personal view. How many value statements do you see that have the word integrity and trust in it? It’s often there. But I think that’s really unhelpful because it’s very subjective what those things are and actually you can’t observe or see them at play. Therefore, you’re sort of applying wallpaper but you’ve got no actionable guidance around it. and I actually in preparation for this I went and sought out a great set of values which are integrity, communication, respect and excellence. which actually sound fantastic and we can all nod to that. What great yes and by the way I’m full of integrity and I’m a very great communicator. I’m excellent in everything I do and I respect that I have a lot of respect for other people. That’s all great.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): But those were Enron’s values and it brings to the surface the difficulty of talking in those sorts of parts of the challenge and…

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): the bridge between the business case for making culture measurable and manageable and actually doing it is that shift of actually culture needs to be really really operational and observable in order firstly for it to make a difference but secondly in order to measure it and I guess that’s where we’re going to come in the conversation now but there’s a positioning point there which is at the heart of the challenge for most organizations  Yeah.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): I can see the issue that you’re saying when so let’s say a company has an incredible list of values and…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): then they have an individual who behaves poorly and you remember our values and they could easily just say yeah I have integrity but you’re saying but your actions don’t reflect that value.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): So instead of trying to help them, somehow figure out the actions that lead to the values making sense, they have to, you’re saying, let’s just focus on the actions,…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): let’s focus on the behaviors. So there’s no question, when behaviors happen. Yes.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): It’s removing the ambiguity and…

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): you’ve talked about the subjectivity issue but also they’re vague. I mean if you say respect and we work with a lot of organizations that when we start with they have things like trust and respect and they’re very high virtues and of course you can’t argue against them but they’re very vague what they actually mean in practice. So very few people when you talk about innovation or agility are very very popular at the moment no one knows…

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): what they look like. So they can agree with the terms but they don’t know what to do differently.  Therefore they do nothing differently and that’s the subjectivity challenge that you’ve highlighted Christa but also the vagueness challenge of it. So yes both of those two things are an issue.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): And one other thing that I really like is that you also said this is within the realms of the company,…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): I don’t care how you live your life outside of work, I really hate when people say we have a family culture or…

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): Yes.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): that kind of thing because it’s a mislabeling, So, we’re talking about company culture here and there’s so many different other types of cultures that exist in other social circles and environments.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): But when we’re talking about strategy as it pertains to individual behaviors within the workplace, that is the lane that we’re talking about company culture, how behaviors are established and…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): lived in reality every workday. And I’d love to hear a little bit more from you, Charlie, of how we actually measure this so that proper business decisions can be made. And then let’s get into how technology is helping with that, whether it’s AI or other technology.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): Yeah. Yes.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): And I may dance between those two questions as I answer that question. But the fundamental insight that led to actually carving culture 15 out from the consulting business because cult 15 is a separate SAS platform as you said in the intro but it started its life as part of the consulting offer as a culture consultancy we needed a framework to help our companies talk about culture and ultimately measure it and we didn’t feel anything on the market really existed that matched our philosophy but we realized after a while

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): that firstly it was a technology solution and therefore really quite different and separate from a consultancy but secondly the opportunity was really very large because more and more organizations are wanting to be more deliberate and more intentional about how they manage culture but to go to your question how do you do it the biggest insight the central insight was you take these meaning but abstract concepts like innovation or agility or high performance or customer centricity  And you have to disaggregate those into their component behaviors. To actually get that sort of observable behavior that we’ve discussed, you have to actually break them down into their component behaviors. That was the first insight. So we have a two-layer data structure where you can customize the aggregate terms but you need to describe them in observable behaviors.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): So that’s the first that two-layer data structure that was the big insight and no one’s doing that not in a quantitative way. secondly you need to present behaviors not as good or bad but as simple choices. So therefore there must be behavioral axes and I’ll give you an example. in what’s critical and pretty identifiable for most organizations is what level of direct communication that they have. Are they comfortable with challenges? Is there high candor? and are there any sort of direct communications? Is there real appetite for direct communication or on the other end of the same axis is there a low appetite for direct communication? are they conflict averse, harmony seeking and really quite indirect?

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): We don’t take the view that any one end of that axis is good or bad but we do ask organizations to make a choice and…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): This is f***.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): that choice and I said in the earlier comments that organizations tend to be insufficiently accurate in defining their target culture. That’s the very interesting first step that we find with organizations when we ask them to make a choice and they look at us blankly because they’ve never had those conversations before. So you have to firstly compose behaviors. Secondly, you make it a non-judgmental axis. There are other tools out there that tend to sort of be a good or bad axis. And actually, all the engagement platforms tend to work on an absolute empirical score. Are you bad at engagement? We don’t take the view when it comes to culture that is helpful. Culture is contextual.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): So every organization is going to require a different culture to be successful given its operating model, its geographic spread, the industry it works in, its size, its history, its legacy. So every organizational culture will have its own target culture. So you need a framework that allows organizations to take those decisions on what it needs in a non-judgmental way. So axes, empirical indices. you need it to be customizable because frankly no organization likes to bend its own language or its own thinking into a standard academic framework and I’m not an academic by background and I tend to find academics do two things they over complicate things and they force your thinking into their frameworks and so I don’t think organizations work that way they don’t like it it’s not easy for them and it tends to die wither on the vine and then lastly you have to embed

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): within the management fabric of the organization and I see so many organizations sort of either the HR teams or the senior team tend to hoard responsibility for culture they rather like Moses coming down from the mount they come down from their offsite with the ten commandments of the culture but of course the rest of the organization were not part of it they don’t buy into it and of course there’s nothing in them monthly or quarterly or annual KPIs that helps them manage it so you have  to embed it in an operational way both in a metric sense but also in an ownership sense you need to give them the data and give them the ownership to be able to take decisions on the back of it.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): So that’s a philosophical framework if you like how technology helps in that and that has been the big breakthrough for us over the last couple of years. We’ve been picking away at this.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): or something.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): I think Mark Andre calls it We’ve been wandering the problem maze for years on The development of LLMs over the last 18 months or so has unlocked that. I’m not going to mix my metaphors and unlocking boxes, but have unlocked that problem.  And so we now can collect data from respondents in an organization. It still has to be a question and response. We could do it passive listening but I and others don’t trust that. So it’s a question and response but we now collect that data in natural language form and that’s been a big breakthrough for us. And we don’t think anybody else is doing this in a credible way at the moment where your culture lives in natural language.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): It lives in how people talk about decisions, how people talk about interactions,…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Christmas. Right.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): how people talk about information flow. It’s a disagreement type process. So you have to collect information in a natural language sense. And by the way, in someone’s first language. so I don’t know whether you guys speak any other languages, but I learned Czech when I was in the Czech Republic in my 40s. So not when it’s easy to learn languages. And of course anybody who speaks a second or lives in a second language will know that you are much, much less intelligent, funny, erudite in any other language other than your own first language. And I work with a lot of people living and working outside the hand country. One of their biggest frustrations is if only you could know how clever I am in collecting information in someone’s first language but collecting natural language.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): LLMs allow you to allow us because we’ve built this over the last couple of years to collect that and convert that in two ways. Most importantly, we convert it into a score and we’ve got these axes I mentioned. There are 15 of them. hence the name culture 15, but they fully describe all the behavioral choices the variations that exist in an organization or culture across any organization. but we populate that in a quantitative way; it’s our own LLM derived score based upon what people are saying. So quantitative output, but of course you also get qualitative output. So you’ve got all the responses and an AI is fantastic at aggregating and summarizing and categorizing large data sets of qualitative information as well.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): So you get a double benefit of both a large volume of qualitative information and culture categorized and trained for the framework but you also get quantitative scores. Now you provide that through a simple staff framework which is not original thought or original technology. Managers across the organization can have a view of their culture as it lives both in terms of how it varies quantitatively from their target for their organization but also a thematically summarized and categorized summary of what people are saying about the culture in their part of the organization.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): So it gives them a dashboard. So that’s step one.  And I don’t know whether you guys know about the Rosetta stone, but it was the stone that had Egyptian hieroglyphics, I think Sanskrit and Persian all on one stone. It allowed them to decode the Egyptian hieroglyphics. So we call our AI engine Rosetta for exactly this reason. it’s created this what has previously been an undecipherable aspect and actually made it understandable. So that’s step one has been that Rosetta innovation.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): How do you actually make it measurable and quantitative but whilst collecting it in a true rich form? Step two for us and this is more recent is that we’ve developed Rosetta into an AI consultant. and this is sort of building AI on AI. And so now we have Rose, we call her from Rosetta, but she’s also English. and so Rose is a manager assistant. So instead of having expensive consultants like me who basically get tired and they travel and…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Go see.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): and they can only be in one place at one time, all the managers in the organization using culture 15 has an assistant who can help them interpret the data they’re seeing, recommend what they should be doing and actually have a chat with you if you want to start to explore concepts.  So technology has unlocked what has been an intention for us for a few years but is particularly the development of LLMs and artificial intelligence machine learning has really unlocked what’s possible to provide to organizations and what’s fun about it as a quite young very innovative company. I started a tech business in my 50s right so I’m running a team whose average age is 24.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): but it’s really exciting because we’re at the forefront of this new wave of technological rollouts which is fantastically timed with what organizations are now asking after which is I want to manage my culture more deliberately but I don’t know how. So at least at a high level Matt that hopefully answers your question.  Yeah.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): I love a lot of the words that you use to describe this.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): It’s intentional. And I would add purposefulness. And I love that you are going in there and you’re not telling them this is how your culture should be, but you’re saying how do you want your culture to be coming down from the company. You’re paying these individuals to work at your company. So how do you want these behaviors? And then you’re then measuring them to remove that ambiguity.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): And then I love how you’ve made the greatest things of our time right now, humans using AI in tandem with their own ingenuity and…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): and what you’ve done is incredible.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): Thank you.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): We see a lot of people jumping on the AI bandwagon at the moment, but where a lot of them miss the point is that it’s not a technology-led solution. It’s a technology enabled solution. You have to actually figure out first of all the principles of what it takes to manage culture effectively. And as I say that it’s very much been a problem maze for us over the last decade and a half. But if you can figure out…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): This is terrible.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): what the problem is to solve AI can really accelerate how you solve that and the difference between an old fashioned scale survey of agree disagree and collecting qualitative inputs and summarizing those and interpreting them and basing actions off it.  It’s almost gone from a sort of a scale of one to 10 on something.  it’s 10x on its value for organizations and we originally started using based surveys and we did analysis on people’s responses and about depending on the organization 60 to 80% of the people answered I mildly agree to the statement to every single statement even if the statements disagreed with each other and really what that showed is people were just clicking through people are so used to I mean it’s the curse of survey

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): monkey, right? everybody’s over surveyed and so you get this sort of click click yes all right I just need to get to the end this is another task I have to do so they neither see value in it nor are they applying much thought to it and that’s the problem it’s culture becomes wallpaper the unexpected consequence of what we’re doing is we’re actually getting every single respondent to be much more thoughtful about culture because they actually have to say something and they can type it but they can also speak into

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): So you can speak into your phone to respond to the survey in any one of 30 languages including Japanese, Chinese. we do right to left languages like Arabic and…

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): So the idea is it doesn’t matter how you say it or write it but just and the difference between the sort of rather mind-numbing agree disagree surveys and this is transformative for organizations and unlocks a completely different conversation and intentionality around culture. Right. I thought it

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Wow, you’re nailing it down and…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): and it seems like a very human-led approach supported by AI. and I think that’s where it’s groundbreaking. So yeah, I would say Yeah. No, that’s honestly incredible. What advice kind of in wrapping up here, what advice or final thoughts do you have for people leaders that are listening to where they should get started? I can think of two kinds of categories of listeners. Someone who’s already doing something for their culture.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): they have some type of survey or something in place. And others who have never done anything like this before.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): I think for both of them I’ll try and…

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): answer sort of both groups of people but both we have a tagline in culture 15 which is define diagnose track and actually that’s not a bad place to start whether you use culture 15 or anything else is you actually have to do the work to define your target culture and what’s interesting about it is we go back to where we started the conversation is you have to define your target culture as which you need not what you want but you need in order to execute your strategy effectively given your chosen operating model.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Thank you.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): So there’s a model of what’s your strategy, what are you trying to do, how are you organizing for success and therefore what mindsets and behaviors are necessary to be successful. So the defining element forces a thought process of how do I link culture to strategy which I think sounds earthshatteringly simple but you’ll be really surprised how few organizations actually rigorously do that right they go okay we’ve done the strategy maybe we’ve got some strategy consultants in the house and…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): I see.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): we know what we’re going to do we’ve got an org structure and hey can you come up with some values for us that would be great and  Actually what it’s forcing is that no we have to be really intentional about what behaviors do we need to actually execute the strategy because that’s going to be the difference strategies don’t fail on paper they fail in execution and they fail in execution because of the behaviors so define diagnose track would be that the headline guidance I would give anybody define what you need understand where you are and then track your progress and the last one is often probably forgotten the most which is if you’ve

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): undefined, diagnose, and you may have an idea of what your culture gap is, but then you forget about it and you don’t come back to it. The real muscle that’s built in organizations over time is that you are revisiting it every six months. and organizations that we’re working with in News Culture 15 have that they repeat and actually we’re moving to real time surveys, not just episodic surveys, but real time sampling. So it is a constant focus…

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): because if you don’t make it a constant focus you won’t get it as part of the management fabric. So that would be the guidance Matt I’d give is just think about those three things: define the target you need, diagnose the culture you have and then make sure you embed it into an overall tracking mechanism. How you do that can have different levels of sophistication. But I don’t think you’ll succeed unless you do those three things.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): That’s awesome advice for our listeners.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): The three one more time for us to define the diagnosis track.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): Define, diagnose.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Take those back to your organization and that’s a perfect place to start and define your culture. Get everything in place for how you want your culture to be, maybe where it is now and where you want it to be and bridging that gap. So thank you so much Charlie.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): We love your perspective today and so many good things that we can think about in our organizations and how we can improve and thanks to our listeners. subscribe and…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): leave us a review. Yep. And we’ll link some resources to learn more about Culture 15 and to follow Charlie on LinkedIn as So check out those in the highlight article and thank you so much for joining us today, ie. Definitely.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): Thank you.

 

Charlie Coode (Guest): Absolute pleasure. It’s been a great conversation. Thank you.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): We’ll see you. So, I have to say,…