Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Welcome everyone. Today is all about remote work and we’re honored to have the special conversation with one of the most talented and senior leaders of one of the most well-known fully remote companies today. Let’s welcome, Kim, Wilkes head of Talent, Attraction at Zapier. Thanks for joining Kim.

Kim Wilkes (Guest): Sure, thanks so much for having me. I’m excited to be here.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Cue the applause Kim and yeah, Kim Wilkes (Guest) has spent over 10 years in the count talent attraction space leading full life, cycle teams, sourcing organizations and employer brand, she currently leads ton attraction at Zapier. Whose mission is to make automation work for everyone. She’s an advocate for Dipe, which is diversity, inclusion, belonging and equity, employee wellness, professional growth, and remote work. She’s passionate about supporting women, and people, from under-represented backgrounds, in their career, journeys and beyond, she’s an active member of the Alpha community, where she enjoys helping women, uncovering new opportunities and making new connections. Can you tell us a little bit more about the Alpha community?

Kim Wilkes (Guest): Yeah, of course, I’ve been a part of Alpha since I joined Zapier about two and a half years ago, that’s when I became introduced to Alpha and Alpha is basically an organization founded by women that supports women and it supports women in so many different ways from being exposed, to new job opportunities here at Zapier. We share all of our job openings, so that women can apply to those, but it’s also just a great way to come together and make connections and network and even forge friendships. And when you think about everything that’s been going on in the world, all these last few years, I think it’s a great place for women especially to come together and to share what they’re really going through and find someone that can listen, that can offer our lending year. So it’s been a great opportunity to be a part of it so far.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): That is so cool. And I’m gonna look into the Alpha community more but this is a resource that I had not heard of and so I think that will be so cool for any of our female listeners to look into that more. And can you tell us a little bit about you and…

Kim Wilkes (Guest): Absolutely.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): maybe just a hobby that you’ve enjoyed in the past?

Kim Wilkes (Guest): Yeah. Absolutely. So as you mentioned I’ve been in the talent space for over 10 years. I joined Zapier, two and a half years ago. I have a really amazing team there, we focus on all things sourcing and employer brands and outside of what I do day to day. I live in Bellingham Washington for a couple hours, north of Seattle. And of course fully remote as Zapier is a fully remote company with no offices. So I love being able to be remote and have that flexibility and I would say in my spare time, I love to do a lot of different things from fitness. I love getting to the gym on a regular basis. I stay pretty active all day walking on my treadmill. I love being out in nature and hiking arts. I love live music. Yeah, there’s so many different things I’ve got a lot of different hobbies. And I’m also an organizer. I’ve been organizing Meetups over the US now for over 10 years and it’s just been a really great way to get to know.

Kim Wilkes (Guest): Different people in different cities where I’ve moved but didn’t know anyone. So that’s writing too.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): And as a side note, last time we had an exploration call with Kim earlier, she was walking on her treadmill while we were talking because Zapier was doing a walking competition. That’s steps. Right? And so such a cool way to incorporate health into the employee wellbeing and…

Kim Wilkes (Guest): Yeah.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): and community. That’s so cool. Yeah. Yeah,…

Kim Wilkes (Guest): Yeah, it makes it fun too. It’s a fun challenge.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): we were actually looking at our office, what could we do here, which is pretty cool. I’m curious about the Meetups as well as Kim. So, who comes to those and where are those all across the country? Or what does that look like?

Kim Wilkes (Guest): Yeah, so I started hosting my first meetup when I lived in. Indianapolis, Indiana. And I did it because I didn’t know anyone. And I also felt like I really wanted to get back into art. I always loved sketching and drawing and painting and for me it was just a really great way to push myself to get back into it because I had let go of that for a while but also then built community around that too. So my first Meetup group was really just focused on that. We were called the MD Skechers and just brought a variety of different people together. Really amazing. People that were so talented. I mean, some of these people they’re professional artists so it made me feel like I’m not really that good at what I do. But we just had so much fun just like making those connections and building relationships and also learning from each other from an artistic standpoint which was really cool. And then I’ve since moved all over the country, I’ve lived in Seattle. I’ve lived in Austin Texas for a while. I’m back to Pittsburgh where I grew up

Kim Wilkes (Guest): I’ve taken these meetups basically everywhere. I’ve gone just to kind of do the same thing whether it’s focused on art or music. There’s a lot of live shows that we go to, or even just getting together for a conversation over a glass of wine. So sometimes they’re pretty casual,…

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yes.

Kim Wilkes (Guest): sometimes it’s more set on a specific event that’s taking place in the city. But yeah it’s just been such a great way to meet new people and make some really good friends.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Not so neat and I’m sure you’ve learned a lot to expand your artistic skills too from other people. That’s so cool. I have to give a shout out to some of my friends here in Cache Valley.

Kim Wilkes (Guest): For sure.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): We have a group that gets together, sometimes we call them The Scrappy Valley Group. So it’s, similar thing, it’s more about startups and entrepreneurship and stuff. But I think that’s fun to just make connections about shared interests and lots of different ways to just help and support each other. And especially when we’re talking about remote work, it’s all about connection. And so those meetups are really important to have that to human connection where it’s not just all through digital formats. So let’s talk a little bit deeper into the conversation here.

Kim Wilkes (Guest): Right.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Kim, we’ll tell everybody a little bit more. Specifically about your role as Zapier.

Kim Wilkes (Guest): Yeah, so I lead talent attraction at Zapier and Zapier is basically a no-code automation platform and we connect to over 7,000 different apps and we help customers streamline their workflows and even build and scale entire businesses using automation in AI. So it’s really, really cool to see what our customers are able to do. We actually hosted our annual user conference zap, connect, just last week and from me being there and watching it and seeing what our customers are building using our products, I just felt so motivated and so energized and being a part of that. So I just think the work that we do is really cool but then seeing how our customers are using it and how it’s supporting their businesses and saving them money and helping them scale. Faster is just really really powerful. And honestly that’s the mission that drove me to work for Zapier. And like I mentioned, we’re fully remote so we don’t even have an office. We have 700, plus employees.

Kim Wilkes (Guest): Across 40, plus time zones and so we work pretty asynchronously and within my role specifically at zapier. I lead our sourcing organizations as a really amazing team that’s going out and looking for talent and bringing in talent for the majority of the roles we have open and then partner very closely with recruiters and hiring managers and really make those hiring decisions to really bring the best people into Zapier. And then the second part of that, which my team is also heavily involved in and leading a lot of initiatives for is our employer brand, specifically our talent brand. And so that’s the second big piece of what I do, but I could not do it without my team and other recruiters that we have within our recruiting or that are just really passionate about this work. And, some of that shows up in building an employer value proposition. What are the things you want to put out there in the world for candidates to know about you as an organization, to our strategic partnerships with diversity organizations, like Alpha Power to Fly and others?

Kim Wilkes (Guest): And then just all the content that we get to build and even up to managing our jobs age and how the look and feel of that is. So there’s a lot that goes into it. But again it takes a whole team and I think it can be tough at times, but we have a lot of fun with it.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): It really does an employer brand. They’re all so interconnected and even marketing, you pull all of these into this. You need a team to cover all of these different things and…

Kim Wilkes (Guest): Yeah.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): I love. So earlier, you mentioned Zapier has been doing remote from the beginning. It wasn’t covid. That started that, and so really, they’ve done a lot of things, whereas a lot of companies who started going remote after Covid have had some growing pains because they got to transition into that. And so, I think Zapier can kind of teach other companies a lot about the right way to do remote work. So, tell us a little bit about what they do well with that.

Kim Wilkes (Guest): Yeah, and I agree with you and I think I have to say, because I’m someone who started out working in an office, and then I worked remotely for companies that were trying to figure out how to do it during the pandemic and granted. They do a pretty good job, but Zapier has been remote from the very beginning. So we’ve had to be really, really intentional about how we do remote work really well. I think some of my favorite aspects of what we do and what I get to experience today. One and I think you might hear this from a lot of other people, I don’t know, but I definitely think just the flexibility and the focus on life balance is really key and I know some companies will say that. But I just had conversations with dozens of my teammates around Zapier, as I’ve been revamping our employer value proposition and that is actually one thing that really showed up and what. So many people told me that they loved working at Zapier and being remote. I know for myself, I can get up early, I can go to the gym. I could log on a little bit later on those days.

Kim Wilkes (Guest): And if I want to pick up my work in the evenings for a bit, I can do that. If I want to say that I have maybe a doctor’s appointment that I want to get to. I don’t have to request that time off. I just take a couple of hours during the day and I get to what I need to get to and I may come back and make sure that my work is done and I’m here, a lot of my teammates say too. I have the chance to take care of my kids to pick them up from school or to take care of them when they’re sick. And the big thing about it is that you’re trusted to get your work done. It’s not about how many hours you worked. Or were you online between nine and five? It’s like were you still able to get your work done at the end of the day but still have that balance and still have that freedom and flexibility which I love. And I would say another thing that I think Zapier does really. It’s specifically what resonates with me is just the growth that comes from for me coming into Zapier, being a fully remote asynchronous company. I really had to learn how to sharpen.

Kim Wilkes (Guest): My communication skills, I thought I was going to communicate and then I joined Zapier and that you write too much or you might go on about things for a little bit longer than maybe you should and people can get lost when you do those things. So, I had to really reframe that and think about what I’m putting in writing, is it clear? And concisely I’ve used chat gpt I use grammarly, I’ve taken internal writing courses that are offered by companies and…

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Wow.

Kim Wilkes (Guest): getting back from teammates and my manager. And so I think just the growth that can come from being in an environment where you’re constantly challenged and encouraged to think about even something like communication. So I think we do that really well too.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): That’s very impressive. Yeah. I think why not use some of those tools to help you do your best work? I think they’re there as well. And honestly I’ve viewed myself as a contractor when I’m an employee

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): And can the company find value in what I’m producing? And if they can’t, then do they want to keep me because I’ve just found when I view my own work, that way, it really helps. and especially when you’re in a fully remote company, you have to communicate. So clearly that it’s impossible to misunderstand, otherwise, you don’t have those just random bump into each other conversations in the hall where you can clarify things and so you almost have to be retrained to be an independent contractor of sorts to say, I own everything in my sphere and I’m making sure everyone understands it. I’m showcasing my value, we’re aspiring to be zapier in the sense that we’re fully remote, but we’re a lot smaller. And so that’s kind of how we’re looking at it. And it’s really cool to see Zapier with 700 plus employees doing it and thriving in that type of an environment.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): What? Yeah.

Kim Wilkes (Guest): Yeah, the other thing that’s really cool about what Zapier has been doing which I actually never did. Past companies are even just something as simple as sending voice memos or recording a video of yourself. Especially if your work is a little bit more complex or there’s a lot of different facets to what you’re trying to share or maybe you have tough feedback that you want to give to someone and you don’t want it to come across the wrong way. You might record a video of yourself and share that with your peers or share that with someone who’s on your team. And I think it just helps them convey the message that you want to convey in the right way. So we do a lot of writing, we use slack, a ton and we’re always communicating that way, but I think just being able to simplify that and even shorten the number of meetings that you have to be in saying. Hey here, quick overview of what I wanted to share so we can actually spend our time and our meeting talking about it, and coming to a decision on this thing. So that’s been really key. It was not easy for me at first when I joined, I was like, you want me to record a video, are you sure? But

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): What?

Kim Wilkes (Guest): Point where I’m like, let me just send you a quick video because I know it’s going to be so much easier.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah, and clearly, you’re so comfortable with it now, right? Because you’re doing a great job being here,

Kim Wilkes (Guest): Worry about being perfect and it’s okay, we’re human,…

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

Kim Wilkes (Guest): we trip up over our words, we stay the wrong things, like That’s okay.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah and I think just hearing how Zapier has been doing remote work to me. It seems like the more efficient way for a company to run because you’re able to just weed out a lot of the stuff that’s time, syncing and not really productive and into the work and into driving the company forward. And so are there any setbacks or challenges that Zapier has faced doing fully remote that you’d like to share

Kim Wilkes (Guest): Yes, I definitely can because no company is perfect. And this is actually also a question that I’ve asked a lot of my teammates. As I’ve gone around and talked to many different teammates. As I built our employer value proposition to be really clear about what we do well and what we do not do well or What are our challenges? So I feel like the timing of this is perfect because I’ve just talked to a ton of different people across the company. I would just say, being a company that is so transparent, we share all information that you could possibly need through public channels. We have our intranet, you have leaders sharing videos, left and right about our product and what’s new and what’s changing. And that’s all amazing because you have access to anything that you could ever want. And not a lot of companies do that. Sometimes you’re left waiting in the dark or you don’t know what’s happening, you don’t know what’s going to come next, so I love that. But a challenge with that is that it can be overwhelming. There’s a lot of information.

Kim Wilkes (Guest): I’m especially in slack. So, keep up with that. Being able to sift out, What do I not prioritize? For me, There’s a lot of things I see where I think. That probably doesn’t really pertain to me. I’m not going to prioritize going through all of that information right now, or I might even save it, and when I get extra time, I’ll go back to it later, but I definitely like,…

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

Kim Wilkes (Guest): you have to be that kind of person that’s willing to just thrive in that kind of environment where you have a lot of information that’s coming at you, how to prioritize it, where to place it when to go to it, it can take a while, it doesn’t come from day one, but I think that that information overload is definitely one.

Kim Wilkes (Guest): And I know I talked about the written communication piece that can be tough for some, if you’re not used to writing a lot. And the last thing I would say too and this is probably the same for any remote company but just being comfortable being in a setting where you could end up feeling isolated. If you’re the type that really thrives and…

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

Kim Wilkes (Guest): having a lot of that, social interaction, you’re not going to really get that in a remote environment. There’s ways that you can counteract that we have customer Meetups and we have city meetups. So our own teammates and kids still meet each other, but day to day, you’re working really hard and solving these challenges. And you’re usually doing it from your home office or from wherever you’re working. And you don’t have all of that around you. You don’t have the chance to say, Hey, you want to just go grab lunch real quick so it can be hard…

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

Kim Wilkes (Guest): if you’re not that person. And my advice is just to always for folks that aren’t sure. I don’t know, just get a sense of what my environment can do. So to this, do I really thrive in this kind of environment or is this going to be a challenge for me, or they’re going to be a lot of actions for me, or am I just going to feel alone being in this kind of setting? So that’s what I always ask folks to think about because it’s not always easy.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): And I think that’s something we’ve discovered with any employer brand. Being clear about what your company does can attract the people who are a right foot for it. And everything you just listed, those can be challenges but being transparent, we’re writing all that information. That is definitely a positive even if there are some challenges with that of having to sift through the information and then having the remote and the flexibility that is a huge positive but has the challenge of maybe some isolation. And so it’s just finding the right talent for that role.

Kim Wilkes (Guest): Yeah 100%. Yeah and that’s why, we spend so much time throughout our interview process and really getting to know folks and not just their skills and their experience and what they would do in the job. But really getting a sense of, would they be someone who would be really successful here, would they really enjoy working in this kind of environment, we face a lot of change. We shift direction and a lot of our customers need something different. We might deprioritize something and reprioritize something else. So we really try to spend time having those deep conversations throughout the interview process with the hiring manager with whoever the final interviewer might be and just again really sharing. Here’s what you can truly expect. These are the challenges you’re really going to face…

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

Kim Wilkes (Guest): make sure that that’s clear to them. So then they can make that decision of is this the right place for me or maybe it’s not

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): That makes total sense. And I think the theme for me about Zapier is in intentionality, like being so purposeful with everything and I think it’s really interesting that Zapier doesn’t require resumes for job applications. There’s what we want to hear more about how you guys identify who is a good fit. And I’m also curious, How do you support someone when on that off chance? It feels like it’s actually not the best after somebody’s there. Yeah, so tell us more.

Kim Wilkes (Guest): So I would say to the first point that you made about not requiring resumes, I think we’ve always just tried to put ourselves in the shoes of other people and just think how can we make the best experience possible. And so, I love that Zapier is just really forward thinking and always willing to do things differently. We don’t just say all these other companies are doing this. So we’re going to do the same thing. We actually take a step back and think, How could we do this better? And so one of those things that we’ve done is not requiring resumes. You can apply to an open job with your LinkedIn profile, or you can even just fill out our application questions and I think it just makes it such an inclusive process and it reduces any barriers. I think about people who are really happy and what they’re doing today. They may not be looking for their next role. They don’t have a resume put together, they don’t have the time to put a resume together, but maybe this is a really great fit for them. They have the chance to just share their experience, and they also get to share

Kim Wilkes (Guest): The impact that they could make for us at Zapier. So when somebody applies we have a recruiting team, we review all of the applications ourselves and we commit to providing updates within seven business days. So we just really want to do our best to say, Hey, you tell us what you’re able to do and how you can help us make an impact and we’ll commit to getting back to you within a week. So that’s at least where you stand.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Wow, there’s so many companies out there that don’t follow up at all. I mean, how many posts are there on LinkedIn?

Kim Wilkes (Guest): Yeah.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Let’s say I’ve been ghosted X number of times for applications. So, are you automating that seven day response? Like what?

Kim Wilkes (Guest): We love to automate things, I can’t say that we automate that. I mean we review every application and then we send those messages out to candidates, for specific reasons. As to, hey, you’re a fit. Let’s schedule the interviewer. I’m sorry. This isn’t going to fit in generally. Here’s why it might be skills.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Okay.

Kim Wilkes (Guest): It might be location. So we’re looking at all of those things, but you use Ashby as our ATS CRM. And there are some ways that we can incorporate automation in AI to help us in crafting the right message or making sure that it gets to people at the right time. We also have dashboards that will say Hey you’ve done a great job, across all of these roles and getting back to folks within seven days. Maybe because of this rule, you’re a little off and your number of days is starting to creep up a little bit so you want to make sure that you’re getting back to them. So we try to use all of those tools the right way to make sure that we’re providing that really positive human experience.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): yeah, that’s great. and then at the end of You maybe, you’ve hired somebody and maybe it’s not a good fit and they have to head in a different direction or maybe they’ve stayed with Zapier for a while and they move on to something else for personal reasons. Tell us a little bit about what you guys do to make that transition positive for both. Parties.

Kim Wilkes (Guest): Yeah, so for candidates, we have a talent community. And we welcome folks to simply fill out a form on our jobs page, and become a part of our community. And that way, when we open new roles, we go to that community and we see who’s already there, who might already be a fit for the role and then easily just bring them back into the process when the timing works for them. Of course, and then we stay connected with them, through our talent community, by inviting them, to virtual events that we host as a recruiting team, or even our quarterly newsletters, to just share, here’s the newest things happening at Zapier, and a lot of times, we’ll invite them to wide events and sharing our open jobs. So really, just hoping to make them feel like we still want to stay connected and stay in touch with them.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Really Yeah, I think that’s cool to think about things beyond just the employment life cycle of when someone either isn’t a fit through the recruiting process and staying connected. And that way with the community, a lot of companies don’t do that and I think the way that you and your team and zapier is providing support with those different events and things like that, it shows a higher degree of care. and I love the word showcasing, it’s more like giving samples, you’re saying, this is the type of experience you can expect from us when you’re employed, we want to give you a little bit of a sampling of that by staying connected with us. I think that’s really, really neat. But yeah, thank you.

Kim Wilkes (Guest): And I think you,

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): You don’t like to share with our listeners today again? Yeah, with them.

Kim Wilkes (Guest): you would ask How does that show up with employees too? And so I definitely wanted to touch on that too. I didn’t want to like it,…

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

Kim Wilkes (Guest): Not get to your second part of the question there. But I think when you think about the employee life cycle and the employee journey, you’re bringing folks into hopefully be really successful and really thrive in your organization. Long term. It’s not just about bringing people in but it’s about making sure that they’re set up for success. They have the right tools, they have the right support and that they also have a path to continue growing and that could look like so many different things. As a professional, it could be growing into a new role, getting a promotion, moving up into management or leadership so it can look at so many different ways.

Kim Wilkes (Guest): But I think what’s really cool is even beyond the coaching that we offer or the tools and the resources that we offer, we also have a program that I’ve never seen any other company have before we call it our next play program, and it’s a program that supports folks in either helping them move up in the company or even helping them transition out, which I just, I think is so unique. And anyone at the company can send a message to our team of recruiters. We have just a few select recruiters, we’re all fully trained on, providing the right coaching and it’s all confidential. But somebody at our company could reach out to us and say, Hey, I’m struggling and xyz area. Could I talk to someone on the team or I have some questions about considering a new job outside of my role? I’m not sure what steps to take. Could I talk to someone and so we could chat with them. We would encourage them, Talk to your manager, Let your manager know, this should be an open conversation and in some cases we’re able to give them advice and tools to help them stay in the role and be really happy.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

Kim Wilkes (Guest): A role. Some cases there. They might say, I’ve been here for a while. I’m ready for how many of us stay at our company throughout our whole lives, with your resume? Can we help you look for your next job? Can we help you prepare for interviews? And a lot of us will stay in touch as coaches even once they’ve exited the company and they’ll stay in touch with us and we continue to support them in that way. And I just think that’s amazing because we really care and I see our leaders really caring about people beyond just you’re at our company or you’re not like we care about you as a human in whatever regard. And we just want you to be happy. We want you to be successful. Even if that means, it’s not here at our company anymore. It’s really amazing.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Not just if you’re working for us, right?

Kim Wilkes (Guest): Exactly, exactly.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): I think that, taking an approach of putting the person first, it is putting the business first. There are byproducts to that philosophy and that directly benefit the company. from our vantage point at mogram, looking at employee reputation. There’s research around the average star rating of current employees, sharing reviews and former employees sharing reviews and a former employee tends to rate their employer half a star lower than a current employee. That’s leaving a rating and review and the fact that you’re giving such support to put that individuals needs and goals and desires above, just a transactional consideration of How do we reduce costs for the business or How do we protect the business that’s buying an added measure of loyalty and engagement that oftentimes isn’t being

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Considered for a lot of companies. So even and I’m not saying you should do it this way, but I’m thinking about other listeners who may be having a conversation with their boss, to try to get buy-in of why we should have a more personal touch. Sometimes the conversation to that business leader is the body. Yeah, this is why putting the person first is good for business. It’s buying that adds loyalty and engagement because talks everybody stays connected. And so after someone leaves it’s amazing to have that good taste in your mouth of the employer that you’re leaving and…

Kim Wilkes (Guest): Yeah.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): you’re more of a fan, you’re more likely to refer to people who would be a good fit there. And there’s just lots of good things that come from being a good human and caring about people and their goals and where they’re headed. I love that transparency so much

Kim Wilkes (Guest): So said that definitely resonates with me and I think any company they can offer these sorts of things. I think it’s just about taking the time and making it happen like this program that we have. It was an idea of a colleague of mine and some of us on our TA or just said, Let’s get together and let’s make it happen and we went through some coaching together and it’s not something that took a ton of money or a ton of time. It was just saying, Hey, if we care about this, let’s make sure that we’re offering it. We’re talking about it when we’re available.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): And doing something like that, really showcases that care and it showed and then it’s just acting on a system that you guys have in place. I think that’s great. So one thing you told us in our exploration call was to help me. Knowing how Zapier is pronounced was happy. We’re happier at Zapier and I love that and clearly Zapier is doing so many things, And for all of our listeners, check zapier out and follow them for great ideas, for remote work and making that successful and being happier at Zapier and follow him on LinkedIn as well. And we’ll provide those resources on our highlight article and thank you so much Kim for being on our podcast today.

Kim Wilkes (Guest): Absolutely. This is so much fun. I’m so glad that we’ve had the chance to connect on this topic, in particular, and I really appreciate the time. Thanks for having me.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Thank you, And thanks everyone for joining us