Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Welcome everyone, just onboarding sets the tone for the employer relationship. Offboarding can be equally important for protecting Goodwill after a separation and this applies to voluntary and involuntary departures today. We have an impressive author and founder from Canada with tips to help you make most of these moments in the employment life cycle. We’d love to welcome Amy Davies (Guest). Thank you for being with us here today.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): Thank you very much for having me. Have you had any other Canadian guests on your show before?

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): We’ve had to remember Russell. Yeah, right. He’s not the relationships at work podcast.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): Yeah.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): So yeah,…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): Okay. Yeah.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): we’ll see you are way up there on our list.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): Wow, okay.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): you know that all Canadians get along with each other, Absolutely have to check them out.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): We’re talking earlier. Matt’s dad is from Canada. So there’s a little bit of connection there.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): That’s right. Yeah.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): That’s a good thing for we want to hear a little bit more about you before founding the first 30 Amy worked in leadership roles for top tier companies in North America and the UK including Unilever. Is it Unilever or Unilever? You were okay Mars Wrigley Granger and…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): Unilever that’s right Unilever

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Rogers. She currently lives in the GTA, is a voracious podcast listener and the proud pet parent of a doberman named Riker. Okay, tell me what a doberman is. that I am okay.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): There are big dogs. Ours is a black and tan color. He’s I guess with 75 pounds. They have short hair. They’re very sleek looking . Some owners crop their ears.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah, I’m gonna have

 

Amy Davies (Guest): We kept him uncropped. He looks scary enough as it…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): answering right

 

Amy Davies (Guest): But they’re very intelligent and extremely annoying.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Wow.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): They’re called velcro dogs as a matter of fact and I am all the time,…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): And they like to be close to you. Really?

 

Amy Davies (Guest): Let’s go right now. He’s out on a walk with his dad. But I do not recommend them as a breed unless you are really really into dogs. We are so we’re good,…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Okay. What?

 

Amy Davies (Guest): but they require a lot of attention and…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Her It’s not one of those dogs.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): exercise. Yes.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): You can just stick in the yard, right?

 

Amy Davies (Guest): Not quite the opposite. Yes.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): That’s very cool. We want to hear more about your career experience. How did you get started with the first 30?

 

Amy Davies (Guest): Yeah, so I always wanted to run a really strange business almost right from the get-go at the beginning of my career. I think maybe it’s because I don’t like being told what to do. I don’t know how to be my own boss, but I started thinking about writing a career book and I didn’t want to write a book that there’s a lot of career books out there, one in mind to be a little bit different. So I started writing about every organization that I was at, such as Unilever in the UK. I worked at the head office there and they went through one of their first big reorgs like the restructuring when I was working there.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): And I was just shocked at the reaction of the employees. I was new to the corporate world. So everything was new to me. But to them this was a real shock to the system. So over time every organization I worked in Telco, right? There’s always restructuring going on in Telco. So I really learned what changes and what happens in organizations when they do go through restructuring and what happens to the employees and what happens to productivity. So I started working on a book all about living and having a successful career and what I refer to as a real world where we’re constantly losing and changing our jobs and then from that I was laid off twice over the course of my career and I had the benefit of outplacement services which are if anyone of your listeners doesn’t know what they are. It’s when companies will hire another company to help their exiting employees recover from the job loss and get back to

 

Amy Davies (Guest): and I thought the services were good, but I felt like I could do this even better if I did something and so after I wrote the book I thought I have an amazing program here. So I turned it into this. What I think of is a pretty engaging program that’s very relevant for today’s business world and career professional to help them recover from the job loss get back to work and I was able to make it really effective which excited me because I really feel like every single person who’s laid off in an organization need kind of deserves that support and help to get back to work quickly, especially in the US where a lot of employees their

 

Amy Davies (Guest): Benefits are tied to their employer in Canada. We have the benefit and the privilege of having Universal Health Care, but not everyone has that so I know with our American participants. They move really quickly in Canada. People get laid off in June. They’re like, I’m not even looking until September in the US. It’s a very different situation. So it’s really nice to be able to help people through this very difficult time of their life.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): but

 

Amy Davies (Guest): So that’s the first 30 started as an outplacement company. We evolved to become an onboarding company and a training company. We were based. So we’ve just used our technology to build new programs and onboarding and training or some of the things that we’ve explored and started doing really well with

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): That’s incredible. I think the reason is just in the last year and a half. I can’t tell you how many people I’ve seen being laid off and how hard and…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): Yeah.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): emotionally and even physically for their family if they’re not able to provide some of the lifestyle or needs that they previously were able to provide for Yeah,…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): And I yeah.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): for I’m curious. Yeah,…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): go ahead.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): No, all it was gonna say is…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): if you put them in a really good program. I know for our participants most of them are back to work within three months and that is meaningful work. So we focus mainly on entry level mid. We have an Executives. It can be more difficult to get back to work when people are later in their career. Unfortunately ageism exists.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah, yeah. Okay.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): It can be really difficult. But we have a very high success rate getting employees focused forward and back to work. That feels good.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): That is so impacting more people for individuals for families for communities for companies the impact of having a more successful and as positive as possible work transition when it’s involuntary is huge. So I’m so excited to dive a little bit deeper into this conversation before we kind of jump into some of our questions. I was just curious, the name of your first book published in 2019 is a spark in the dark. So I’m just curious about the name there and how it is.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): There’s another I didn’t want to make you have to say all of it. But the next part of that title is illuminating your path to a successful career in a reorg world. So that’s the full title of the book and it was a little trial and error with that title. I just felt like it could be a very dark time. Right especially when there’s recessions a lot of restructuring going on and I thought we’re not getting a lot of guidance. So here’s my little spark for you. But you have to do a lot of the work yourself. You can’t rely on other people.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): So it’s a spark. I’m not caring about a propane tank behind you, but hopefully it’s hopeful but also it’s a call to action for the people who read it.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): I love that. I’m very memorable, that’s awesome. So let’s dive into why we want to cover two main topics today and…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): Thank you.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): our conversation. We want to talk about onboarding and about off-boarding. which I’m so excited to talk more about this because I think this is an overlooked part of employee experience and one of the main principles in Memory is Primacy and recency. And so we often remember our first experience somewhere or something and our last experience and that is literally onboarding an off-boarding with employment.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): Yes, exactly.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): And so we cannot Overlook that part because if you haven’t really poor onboarding you will remember that and if you are off boarded poorly, you will remember that and that will be what you share with other people when you leave that employment opportunity. So yes, so

 

Amy Davies (Guest): These are moments of real vulnerability as well. You’re feeling vulnerable both when you start in an organization and…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): nervous to start. Yes.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): when you leave, Yeah.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): So in your opinion, why is onboarding so important?

 

Amy Davies (Guest): go ahead Matt.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): And where do you see the most companies fail just like you…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): Sure.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): where are they stumbling?

 

Amy Davies (Guest): It’s important for exactly what you were discussing. There’s that impact when we start an organization we are engaging with any new stimulus whether that is a new restaurant, a new person or a new employer. We are imprinting and we’re cognitively highly receptive and that’s a rapid learning process that we’re going through and we’ve depended on this as a species for our survival since humans existed pretty much so it’s not something we can just turn on and turn off nor can an employer turn it on or turn it off. So it kind of ties to what I think the biggest mistake is that employers are making and that is you we know and we even say it you don’t get a second chance to make a first impression and it is so true but employers it’s mindset. They seem to have this idea that they’re always gonna get a second chance to make a first impression.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): And I started my career that maybe have been the case in some respects because I grew up in a time in the corporate world where you did what you were told you your employer had the power and you were supporting it to them. We live in a very different world. Now employees are extremely expensive to companies and they can be very hard to find and there’s a huge competition for top talent. And I know we see it and there’s Bud Buzz words and these, worthy headlines. It is very true though that it is really hard to keep your best people in your organization and you should care about the productivity of everyone in your organization. So there’s many mistakes that companies make but the first one is not really realizing the importance of investing in these types of programs for their new hires.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): That makes sense. Yeah, it starts with the mindset of recognizing the importance of…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): Yeah.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): what we’re talking about. I mean I’ve spoken to so many different employers, so many different HR leaders and…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): Yes.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Executives and I find it very fascinating that costs are looked at differently when we’re talking about. Someone inside the company can do this versus we’re gonna pay an outside company to do this. It’s like this weird separation of expenses to the business that payroll is not an expense somehow, but it is every single person’s time. Is whether they’re paid more or less or in a different position or less if they’re spending time on something that is money to the company. They could be doing something else. They could be contributing in another way. And yeah, it’s key to recognize the importance that setting the tone here has on that employment relationship and having it a mindset that this is serious. It’s important.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): And it’s not just about you to your point here. It’s not just about this feel-good situation. It’s not even only about productivity. It is about the cost of the business so we know from research that 33% of new hires will leave within their first six months. I would also argue that there’s many that are leaving. If you’re in manufacturing they’re leaving even before they start there’s a lot of ghosting that happens and…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): yeah.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): we can talk in a few minutes about one of the strategies for avoiding having a new hire ghost you as an employer because it is happening. But it costs at least 30 to 50 percent of an employee’s salary to replace them. That’s at a minimum that doesn’t even account for all the soft costs.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): The time lost the morale damage that it will do to your organization when new hires leave. So we need to really be thinking and investing in these things and I would say the other huge mistake that companies make is that I can say this because I’m on the front lines of this. They do not invest in onboarding and they have these things that are amazing.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): .

 

Amy Davies (Guest): There’s some incredible HRS. So I hate to say this system because it’s like just the systems in the last word about a field. We are not to say it. And they want everything to work together. That’s fine with those onboarding widgets at most hours. They are not.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): Going they’re not changing the game for your organization the way that ours is and by no means as a sales pitch, but I want your listeners to look at any technology. They’re bringing in it may not marry the system perfectly that you have in place already, but will it work and do a really good job at what you need it to do best some technologies are wide reaching and they’re meant to do many things and some technologies do one thing and they do that one thing very very well and I would love to be at a stage where that’s all integrated. But the reality is there are very few if there are any and if there are they’re very expensive,…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah, yeah. That totally makes sense that I have things connected…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): but I’m happy to be told I’m wrong. That will seamlessly integrate with the technology that you have in your company today.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): but it comes out of cost. You’ve got to balance getting the outcomes that you want with your technology. Yeah, and it makes sense that just having technology isn’t the bandaid that’s gonna heal that first experience that employees have when they come to your organization.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): That’s right.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): And so I’d love for us to dive into what does a successful onboarding plan look like

 

Amy Davies (Guest): right

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): but

 

Amy Davies (Guest): Yeah, that’s a great question. The first thing is pre-boarding. Once someone joined your organization oftentimes. We’re sending them a criminal background check benefits document to sign this. This is necessary. It’s not inspiring so we cannot call that pre-boarding is I just signed my offer with your organization my manager who may not be the person who’s communicating with me about the offer because I’m communicating with my manager as soon as possible sends me an email and says Amy, I’m thrilled to hear that you signed the offer back. Thank you so much. We’re so excited to have you on board and then that manager reaches out to me maybe a couple times or you set me up with a buddy who’s my peer in the organization. They don’t even have to be a member of my own team. I’m just someone I can ask those stupid questions about what people really wear to the office. You can

 

Amy Davies (Guest): little silly showing up in your Sunday Best in an office. That’s really casual.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): So I think it’s a really good idea to let someone know, really give them the real deal on what people wear to the office, what time they come in, what time they leave so that’s pre- Send them some fun things about your company. If you’ve got great engagement scores. I know that’s the area that you work in and send them that information about…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): No.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): how well you’re doing as an employer. So send them things that you’re excited about working on, there’s a lot of things from a technology standpoint you could do to make this process easier setting up an email campaign like marketers do for customers. You can actually do that for your new hires before they even start and have five fun messages go out to them automatically once their emails are in your system. They’re even their personal email. So that’s number one number two is

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): No.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): Whether someone starts remotely or whether they’re coming into the office give them a little time on that first day. So I don’t like when companies expect someone to have everything set up at 8 or 8:30. On their very first day if they are working remotely give them the first few hours of that day to get their technology set up. That’s not their responsibility to do on the weekend. At one point in my life I was a single mom of two young kids and I can tell you right now I would have not had my whole text set up on the weekend with two little kids running around. So we really have to be mindful of that. So I absolutely love when companies allow new hires to come in late and start late on their first day and…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): And Fillmore excited about…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): leave early…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): what they’ve been hired for I was going to ask…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): because managers aren’t even set up for them.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): what do you think about interviewing that fits within the pre-boarding as well?

 

Amy Davies (Guest): So that means they might be sitting in your lounge of your office for an extended period of time. That’s a horrible way to start. Yeah.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): The interview process and then I don’t know how to submit an application or resume.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): a new job Yeah.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): Yeah, I think it is really really important. I don’t see it as part of the onboarding. I see it as part of your…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Okay.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): how you’re putting your best foot forward as an employer.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): The reason I don’t think so is that it’s a whole other world unto itself and…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): often that is a talent acquisition area. And I do think it has to be treated very specifically, but I also think that whoever is I don’t think anyone in the Department should own onboarding. I think yes, you have your orientation, but then you’re on the job training. So you have your managers that I do think need to be treated as a separate entity, and then when it comes to learning the business, we really have to remember that they’re fragile at the best of times as a matter of fact, but when we’re starting a new job, we’re nervous. We’re trying to make a good impression.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): 

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): but it needs to be cohesive with every other communication that you have. It’s like, when I see onboarding materials, I see a lot of this too if you see this hodgepodge of resources that have different branding on them or different fonts like impressions. We’re meeting a lot of new people and then we sit through a half day or a day of orientation. We’re learning all kinds of new systems and everyone wants to cram everything in and then our minds are like a sieve. We can’t remember anything or we remember very little

 

Amy Davies (Guest): Consistency actually breeds trust. So the more consistent we can be in all of our touch points with our employees in general but our new hire specifically knowing how vulnerable they are the better. I wanted to make one more point if you don’t mind about a big mistake and then once we try to apply that knowledge, we’re embarrassed because then we have to go back and ask people how do you do this again? And how do you do that? I love based training for that. So task-based videos that you have housed somewhere…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): No.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): just reminding me because we’re talking about having technology as support. somewhere that employees can actually find that says, okay, you need to fill out your first benefits. Your company that you’re using for benefits probably has videos that you could put on a platform or on a shared SharePoint. Make sure that your new hires have the tools they need to do their job. If they don’t the worst thing you can do is look at them and say this sort of thing happens all the time around here.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): It has…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): where your employees can access them and

 

Amy Davies (Guest): what happens to that and what and this happens a lot and…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): send them that information. If you’re going to send it out by email clearly label that email and

 

Amy Davies (Guest): this employee doesn’t want to be like, my gosh, if this is it’s how is it going for our customers right now?

 

Amy Davies (Guest): again, I think that automation can be so helpful here,

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): They’re suddenly worried about the business.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): but very few companies are actually utilizing larger companies.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): They don’t feel that they can trust you and we were talking about imprinting and…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): Yes to some extent smaller and

 

Amy Davies (Guest): what happens once people have imprinted they build what’s called a belief system.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): mid-sized companies not very much at all.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): And once that belief system is established.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): It can be very difficult. If not impossible to change and I always try to make the case by saying have you ever tried to change anyone’s mind? Pretty much anything, right?

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): And one thing that you said really stood out to me: consistency breeds trust and so that can be from the very first time you apply onboarding all the way through employment and…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): Yes.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): I know.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): having consistency of recognizing the brand as organized and…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): I’m here.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): they are supportive. they’re communicating between departments too. …

 

Amy Davies (Guest): right Yes,…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): that’s tough one and…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): That’s right. Yeah.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): no companies. Perfect. I recognize that there’s a whole additional world that we could talk about with internal communication and collaboration and surveys and all that. But the point I wanted to make that you brought up is that is the case on the talent acquisition piece when an employee or a job Seekers searching for a company if they see consistency and how the brand is showing up even down to are all of their logos the same.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): Yeah.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): On all the different social media platforms because if they’re du unclaimed profiles a really great rating on glass door and a really horrible rating on her site. that creates reputation disparity and it completely damages trust. It makes the job Seeker feel like a holy cow. Does this company even know what they’re doing does the right hand know…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): Yes.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): what the left hand is doing and that feeling completely ostracizes the job Seekers to where they’re not applying but I think to your point in the onboarding process that same experience can happen if we’re not organized if we’re not purposeful…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): Yes.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): if we’re not consistent with branding s our Communications, then it can be worse though because the person’s in the door now,

 

Amy Davies (Guest): I mean there’s so much to add. We could talk about this all day, but I don’t think that’s a good idea for your listeners. I don’t think they’ll have an updated list, but I do love what you were saying about and I know that some of what Mobrium does is you do that social listing for companies. So you help them understand and…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): And now they’re having those feelings that are jobs.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): then as I understand it you also help them drive up their scores on all of these sites,…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): And a job Seeker could have that experience. If you’re not cohesive online,…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): which again I think is critical…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): you’re not represented consistently,…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): because what would you feel like…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): but it could be even worse…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): if you do a reference check on an employee and…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): because now they’re in the door and they’re going man,…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): you get three vastly different perspectives from the three you spoke to. They’re all talking about different skills that this person has or…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): what did I sign up for? So yeah that consistency is critically important and employer branding is a function that should be a part of this whole conversation as well as our talent acquisition presence like…

Amy Davies (Guest): different qualities different.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): how we’re showing up online consistently is our onboarding presence and process and consistency. Are we showcasing a strong employer brand through this? Yeah, so there’s anything else you wanted to add to onboarding?

 

Amy Davies (Guest): Areas, where they need maybe some support it’s going to make you lose trust in that candidate. So turn that around on your organization because guess what your new hire has been doing for the last three to six months until they’ve joined the company. They’ve been interviewing with other employers. You might be the first one that made them the offer they get inside your organization and I’m convinced this is what drives the third that leave within the first six months. gosh. I have made a huge mistake. Boom

 

Amy Davies (Guest): But then guess what that company makes them a job offer or…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah. Yeah.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): The offer still stands and they leave. I know this isn’t for employees but this is why I always tell the participants in our program once you get a new job. That’s amazing. I’m sure you’re gonna be super excited to tell everyone to wait three months, but it helps LinkedIn because you don’t know what you’re gonna do, you don’t know what can happen. Yeah.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): 

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): I should have gone with this other company, right? Yeah.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): There are a number of things like onboarding right for one thing.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): That’s very smart.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): It’s like in my day when I started I’m not that old…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Let’s talk about off-boarding. So why is it important?

 

Amy Davies (Guest): but I’m old enough for that.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): I mean we’ve talked about…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): It was long enough ago the world looked a little bit different,…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): why it’s important. But where do you see most companies fail especially during layoffs?

 

Amy Davies (Guest): someone might write off into the sunset and you never see or hear from them again. We live in a very different social media world. Now, we’re all connected person leaves your organization whether by choice or because of restructuring there around they’re still communicating, they’re going on indeed and Glassdoor and filling out reviews, right and that’s definitely something where we are very in sync. So we want to make sure and you have time that recency effect, So we want to make sure that the last experience as they have with our company are all so positive if we’re having a wild wide scale lay off number one. I don’t think that company should take the amputation approach to layoffs.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): Amputation approach I’m sure you have a picture of what that can look like you are immediately cut off from the organization. Your phone might be taken. Your ID card is taken and you are walked by security to the door having worked in telecommunications. I did see that quite a lot. So what does that do? First of all, shocking for everyone, right? and it’s particularly shocking for the individual who’s now just thrust out in the middle of the day from in a sense their home.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): Except yeah, that’s kind of how you feel. So I really strongly would urge any employer if they can. I know it’s not always possible to take the working notice approach. I call it the white gloves approach the soft gloves approach. Sorry to lay off and…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Treated like a criminal right?

 

Amy Davies (Guest): give people a little bit of notice and time you’d be surprised how they rise to the challenge. Let them use your printer to print off a few copies of their resume, get them started and we’ll talk in a minute about our placement but get them started with that career transition support and moving towards a new role. So they’re not gonna be threatening legal action. It’s so much more civilized and the thing that a lot of companies forget is the productivity and the engagement of their employees who are left behind. So if you take a softer approach to lay off, you will get more commitment to your employees who are already in the organization. It just all feels so much.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): More civilized and take the compassionate approach, we could go in and I don’t know how far down you want to go but there is the whole issue of communication. That’s very difficult. But this is what I will say about communication and planning. Senior leaders, these layoffs are gonna happen. You’ve known about this for six months to eight months, maybe even a year, right? Then you need to bring your management team along right to your director level Etc. You tell them.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): And now you just want it done but there’s this sort of change curve that people go through and you’ve gone through all the emotions you’re at the other end and you’re like, let’s get it on with your people. You’ve just told me to wait a second. They’re going through all that emotional turmoil that you’ve already gone through and you’re expecting them to be where you are. You need to bring them along as much as you can.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): 

 

Amy Davies (Guest): So there’s so many different aspects of that. I won’t get into all of them but realize as a leader, you’ve had a lot of time to digest this. You really need help and give space and time to people. I know you want to move things along that you really need to help them come through the other end with you and…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): then of course, I can’t be objective about placement and career transition support. It comes at such a small cost to you as a business like some of our programs anyway are $500.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): Dollars per participant and most out placement companies will offer a volume discount. If you have a lot of employees going through the offer you get discounts based on the size of the layoff.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): If they can be right but it varies. These are very small numbers for a huge return. You’re not gonna have someone emailing and legal and maybe they’re gonna have a few but they’re gonna be a lot less than you would otherwise and these people are gonna move on if you have a claw back. Do you know what a call back is when you lay someone off often? What companies will do is if they’ve given them a severance, the severance is meant to cover them for the time they’re out of work. But if you get back to work quickly and…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah, yeah.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): say you’re Severance is six months and you get back in three months to work. Your company is entitled to not have to pay you for that other three months. So the money can save the heartache.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Know to me that seems like a handoff…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): It could save your organization the morale boost to employees…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): where it’s like I’m sorry that we’re letting you go…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): who are still working with you now, seeing that the existing employees are taking care of you and thinking about an indeed or…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): but here you go and hand you off to these guys and they’re gonna take care of you and…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): glass door review when the company supported.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): that show so much care from the organization with very little input.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): One rather, I mean listen,…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Like you said both on cost and…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): people are gonna say bad things, but there might not be the same sting and…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): on their actual time to just we care that.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): what they’re saying. If you’ve given them really good.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): I know it didn’t work out here for you,…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): but we care that you’re taking care of and that you have somewhere to sta and head in the good place with your next employment…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): Highly professional career transition support that helps them get back to work.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): They’re going to be focused on the rest of their life. They’re not looking back at you.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): but individual personalized care as well, but the company can offer at scale in that,…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): Yeah.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Mass restructuring moment. I do have a question for you.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): Yes.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): So I’ve been a part of layoffs as well. I’ve seen it. I’ve been the one to break the news to people. It is difficult.

Amy Davies (Guest): Absolutely. Yeah.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): There’s no getting around that it’s a Challenging event that happens I’ve seen from the employer side concern about security and…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): Yeah.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): if we were to give that white glove approach and give people notice that someone’s going to do something that they shouldn’t with access to company systems. So I’m curious. What’s the rest? Yeah, how do you balance that individual care and giving that white glove treatment to give people notice while minimizing security risk to the business?

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): Yeah, Amy,…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): too late

 

Amy Davies (Guest): you have to hire people that you think are worthy of your organization. And before we were talking I was interviewed for a podcast all about Psychopaths and the prevalence that I know when people always laugh when I talk about it, but we would be surprised if we all knew as much as I do psychopathy. It’s really quite scary and there are ways to mitigate risk to your business and not end up hiring the types of people who would do those things in the first place and weeding them out. So that is one way but obviously we’re not in that position when we’re running late off. So we’re too late if we haven’t taken that action already. So yeah, there may be risk. I’m not sure how huge it would be, how big of secrets and access to someone I know. Companies used to be very concerned about their customer lists.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): Now that LinkedIn exists. I mean, what are you protecting at that point right people have this information someone They’re that type of person. They might have already downloaded that to their own people’s home and work life are so in sync now, they probably have all the files. You don’t want them to be on a cloud somewhere. You don’t even know that they’re there right so I know that’s probably not feeling employers with a sense of ease or…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): don’t know.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): anything, but just treat them when they’re leaving and you’re gonna mitigate that risk because I don’t know that you’re making that risk greater,

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): That’s one of your arms. That’s a little literal amputee right if you take

 

Amy Davies (Guest): By walking them right out the door and the big thing when you’re walking and I actually was gonna say I have first 30 has a free download of how to run compassionate layoffs. If you have a notes page where you leave show notes. I’m happy to share the link to access that as well. We also have a guide to employ onboarding and I’m happy to share that with your listeners. Like I said, it’s all free to download. There’s some really great content in there. We don’t have time for the podcast for 30 minutes or

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): yeah.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): So to talk about all of these things because it’s like how do you run the discussions? That’s a whole nother conversation. But the big thing is if you are forced to exit someone and take the amputation approach.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah, so quick question before we end here…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): The one thing that I so highly recommend is do not take their phone away.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): what would you say is the optimal amount of time to give notice for terminating someone?

 

Amy Davies (Guest): You don’t know where they are emotionally.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): Phones. Do you know what a phone is like?

 

Amy Davies (Guest): Exactly. So, please please keep in mind what the consequences could be of taking their phone away emotionally to them and the backlash that it could have on the business. If you do something like that, It’s not worth it to do that, right you can get them in as part of their contract and leave your organization.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): There’s things you can work in. I’m not a lawyer or an employment lawyer and I’m not an expert but I’m sure that you can speak to your lawyers and there’s ways to work things into contracts. and I mean that’s not just the severance agreement. It’s also their agreement when they start working for your business, it can all be built in there. So you can protect yourself and other ways that my goodness if the worst happens with an employee and you’ve taken their phone away that you might carry that with you.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): mmm

 

Amy Davies (Guest): I like four to six weeks myself. I know that seems long. It really does give someone a chance to wrap up the work. I have seen cases and I’m involved in an organization where there was a case of this. We laid off a lot of people and this one person was just causing a lot of problems. But everyone else was fine. This was just one individual and…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Very well said yeah,…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): they were told they were gonna be paid…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Amy, my goodness. You are a wealth of information,…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): but they’re asked to not come back into the office anymore.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): and it sounds like there’s even more we can dive into. We will definitely post those links for our listeners and…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): So I’d say four to six weeks is a good amount of time,…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): just go ahead and grab them and…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): but you can give less…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): head there if this is something that you’re over,…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): if you want I think two weeks seems a little short to…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): but thank you so much this is some of the actionable information that we’ve received on this topic,…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): but that’s just me because you do benefit as an organization from the trance of knowledge transfer as well that you’re gonna get from that person and…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): and I think it’s gonna be super useful for our listeners. So thank you for your time today everybody.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): even if you don’t want them to come in the office the whole time,…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Go check out Amy’s profile on LinkedIn.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): Okay, would you be okay…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): We’ll link to that as well.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): if we continue to pay would you take calls on the project?

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): So you can follow her and check out the first 30 and…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): That you’re running most reasonable people are gonna understand…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): thank you for being here with us. Remember to leave a review of the culture profit and…

 

Amy Davies (Guest): socially if it’s especially…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): follow along as we seek to prove that putting people first is best for business.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): if there’s a really clear reason for the layoff as well and…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Thank you again.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): I was gonna say that when it comes to communicating these things and…

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Amy for being with thanks Amy.

 

Amy Davies (Guest): when it comes to giving working notice the thing that makes people feel the least. I mean Wellness is a variable it can change throughout the course of the day. But what we know really affects me when I used to study it when I worked at Unilever is the control taken away from you about your own outcome. That has the highest impact on your being of almost anything else, So once someone has the news they have that finality whether it’s knowing they haven’t got a job, even if it’s bad news or knowing if they’re gonna lose the job they have

 

Amy Davies (Guest): there is a certain calm that enters the picture because hey now I have control over what is going to happen to me next. So that’s a huge positive for people to know about what is going to happen.