Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Welcome everyone. Today we’re talking about leadership. How many conversations have you heard about good and bad leadership? A lot of the content out there is very fluffy on this topic. Today we’re cutting through that fluff and discussing the hard questions with leadership expert Spencer Morris (Guest) calling in from Lincoln, Nebraska. So Spencer, thank you for joining us today.
 

Spencer Morris (Guest): Thank you so much for having me. I’m really excited to be here.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): We are too. We’re glad we got connected. And a little bit about Spencer. So Spencer Morris (Guest) is a seasoned leader with over 17 years in the skilled nursing industry. We were chatting about medical stuff a little bit ago, but including 12 years as a licensed nursing home administrator. He founded Pathway Consulting to help leaders and teams gain clarity, strengthen alignment, and build high performing cultures, which is essential to business. With deep expertise in operational excellence and intentional leadership, Spencer empowers organizations to create lasting positive change. So, yeah, we’re super excited to jump into this more. And Matt wanted to start off with the hard question. Yeah, we’re going to go really hard right out of the gate here, Spencer. So,

Spencer Morris (Guest): I love it. Let’s do

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): my question here is,

Spencer Morris (Guest): it.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): is leadership teachable? When like when should a people leader with subpar performance be fired or can you teach them up?
 

 
Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

Spencer Morris (Guest): I love that question. My opinion is leadership is a skill and that is something that can absolutely be developed. Now there are individuals that have maybe that natural tendency. Maybe they have certain qualities that make aspects of leadership easier for them. It comes more naturally. But the reality is that there is leadership in all of us. But it can be harder to bring out some of that leadership in some than it is going to be for others. But the reality is that most of us need opportunities and we need that investment. Um, if we think about it, I love thinking about the individuals and the leaders that I’ve had the opportunity to work with in the past and think about the time that they spent with me and the individual discussions, the hard discussions, the celebrations to a degree, right? If we step back and we think about those wonderful people that spent that time with us, we recognize just what they did for us and we can also recognize that that leadership is something that we didn’t have.
 

 
Spencer Morris (Guest): You know, we weren’t that kind of leader at that moment, but with the help of those people that invested in us, we were able to learn certain leadership qualities and we were able to develop ourselves. So leadership is absolutely a skill and that skill can be developed. It can be honed. It can be sharpened and it can be improved. But it really can be hard to to determine when someone is probably not the right person for that position. You you asked, you know, when should that person uh with that subperformance subpar performance be fired? um that can be hard and I don’t think that there’s a magic bullet or a specific uh framework that you need to follow other than has that leader have you invested enough in that leader to know that you’ve given them the right tools to be successful? Have you followed up with them? Have you um uh made sure that with all the measurables that they that they are in charge of, have you have they left have they completed them?
 

 
Spencer Morris (Guest): Have they followed up like they’re supposed to? And if they have and they’re still struggling, then it might be time that we need to to look at maybe they’re not going to be successful in that role or maybe they’re not going to be successful on the team.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): That makes sense. I mean, as you were speaking to that kind of uh um checklist of things to consider, it made me think about, you know, performance evaluation for just any type of performance. Like if you have, you know, a designer and they’re not hitting their deadlines and they’re not taking feedback from their internal clients, you know, they’re, you know, other people that would contribute to those projects, then you’d have that same type of conversation of you’re not doing the design work that we need and we’ve given you all of these opportunities to improve. And people leadership is just a skill set that’s you know you may have a people leader who does the individual contribution and people leadership but you’ve got to almost score that performance leadership and have those conversations.
 

 
Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): I think in the best organization like to your point it’s not a surprise if that separating ways conversation happens like it it should be very anticipated in an org that’s very people first and they’re having those conversations along the way instead of a blindsided why didn’t you tell me this sooner that I wasn’t you know hitting those metrics I could have changed I could have done better

Spencer Morris (Guest): Absolutely. And that and that’s the thing. Oftentimes some people get uh terminated or or walk out the door and the clarity wasn’t there in the first place. They they weren’t told uh uh along the way this is this is the area that we really need you to

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Mhm.

Spencer Morris (Guest): focus in and this is how we can help and support you get better in that area. and it can be a very it could be a surprise for some and that’s just not right. They should have that clarity throughout the process so that they know ultimately if I’m not successful I this is going to happen and I and I can recognize that and I can uh I can uh get emotionally in tune with why that is happening.
 

 
Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): That makes sense. And I think to the people leaders who are managing that performance for other people leaders, they have to think about the morale and performance. um the culture of the team that that individual is overseeing as well. You know, because there’s a magnifying effect that happens. It’s not just the individual contributor level of win or loss that we’re talking about. We’re talking about a leader who if they just aren’t willing to change or they are they’ve had lots of chances to and they’re just not putting in the efforts, then there is a misalignment. And you can’t let the whole team’s uh morale and performance just lag because there’s an increased cost associated with doing nothing over time. I would Hey.

Spencer Morris (Guest): Oh, absolutely. It affects that entire team.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Hey.

Spencer Morris (Guest): And if that person that’s in that supervisory role just isn’t that right person, then it is going to negatively affect the team, the morale and and being able to determine that and and move on from them.
 

 
Spencer Morris (Guest): You can see the opportunity to really bring them up uh and and give them those uh the right kind of leadership that they should have, the kind of leadership that’s going to help that team excel. Um, and I would recommend that when it comes to how you determine if that person is going to be successful or not, there’s certain metrics that make sense that feel obvious. You know, those measurables that are this are the numbers that you need to hit, but don’t have it just be in those tasks and and the lag measures necessarily. What else are you utilizing to help measure? How are you determining that the people that they’re responsible for are improving and if they’re developing? That’s probably one of my favorite measurements of a leader. How do you determine if a leader is successful? Is the leadership of the people they’re responsible for? Is that increasing? And if that’s increasing, then they are an amazing leader.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Well, yeah, that’s a good gauge to follow that.
 

 
Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Um, I as you were talking I was thinking about I’ve seen a at least a few experiences of of companies where it’s almost like these leaders they’re they’re like untouchable a little bit and they’re bad actors and they’re creating kind of a toxic

Spencer Morris (Guest): More

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): work environment for the people that report to them. And what ends up happening is you have turnover in that team and somehow that’s not a red flag like we need to see what’s going on in this group with this leader. I don’t know. We just have to keep that top person happy because they’re incredible. Yeah. Yeah. I don’t know.

Spencer Morris (Guest): Yeah.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): A lot of times it just seems like they go under the radar even if you know these guys. Maybe these guys are too afraid. You know the ones who are reporting to this leader are too afraid to be like my leader is toxic or is being this way or something. But I do feel like sometimes the reputation gets so bad that there’s nothing there’s nothing they could teach this person that would overcome the bad reputation.
 
  
Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): I don’t know what are your thoughts on that because sometimes it seems like the only thing that’s best for both parties is to let them go to a different company and start fresh with with a better

Spencer Morris (Guest): Oh, absolutely.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): perspective.

Spencer Morris (Guest): The reality is there’s so many different scenarios why a person can get to that level. Uh sometimes someone gets in a leadership role because they excelled early on and then they kind of their their uh flaws and their mistakes are are looked over because they were doing such a good job earlier on in their career or they were a great leader but then they’ve kind of fallen off in that and then it becomes then it can become a little bit more that political environment where like you said maybe they’re kind of

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

Spencer Morris (Guest): untouchable. Uh and uh unfortunately in that sense there’s so many people that want to say something but maybe fear to speak up and say that that’s the wrong person or that they’re not feeling um supported and they feel like whatever the situation is.
 
 

Spencer Morris (Guest): And so there it can be very very dangerous and it creates that political environment and unfortunately nobody nobody thrives in that kind of environment. Uh so it really takes in my opinion a balanced team, a leader whoever is in at the top you know the president the CEO it takes a humble individual who’s constantly seeking the feedback of the people around to make sure that they’re that the leadership across the board really is the right kind of leadership. That kind of leadership is intentional about the people around them and because otherwise it becomes that political environment where people are scared to speak up. uh where where uh individuals at a supervisory level have control and that’s what they feel like leadership is is that they they need to control uh the the situations and the people around them and and that gets toxic quick and and dangerous and then people if the supervisor stays in their role,

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

Spencer Morris (Guest): the people around start leaving and because they’re no longer they’re not enjoying what they do and they’ll go find joy somewhere else.
 

 
Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah. They’re like, “How soon is this person retiring?” Oh, not not soon enough.

Spencer Morris (Guest): Right. They’re looking at a timeline like they’re looking at the clock, right? They’re like, “When is this guy gone? I can’t handle it anymore.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): So, here’s another question. Uh, do you as a consultant recommend certain systems for these companies that help make people comfortable to share or maybe it’s some kind of anonymous thing, maybe it’s a suggestion box. Do you recommend like are there systems you can put in place to kind of prevent these things from happening and uncover them and uncover them?

Spencer Morris (Guest): Absolutely. I mean, there are some organizations that will do something like the s suggestion box or something.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

Spencer Morris (Guest): I personally love the use of the one-on ones. Uh if there’s a supervisor should be meeting with the people they’re responsible for on a one-on-one basis at a regular interval, whether that’s once a week, whether that’s every other week, and or whether that’s once a month.
 
 
Spencer Morris (Guest): And I recommend that in that one-on-one, you implement what I like to call the feedback sesh where you are you are dedicating five 10 minutes for the supervisor to be able to give feedback to who they’re responsible for and and make sure that they’re constantly improving and they’re they’re working on certain skills and whatnot, but then that that supervisor is also asking for feedback in return. And so that that individual now has the opportunity to to express any potential concerns or or something that they noticed that hey maybe as a supervisor you could tweak this or look at that. Uh and that to me one it shows major humility from a supervisor standpoint. Uh and it invites feedback to be more natural for it to be common. Uh and then it also makes it easier for someone to receive feedback so they can internalize it and improve but then it allows it to be more part of the culture. Your feedback becomes something that is to be expected. It’s not a surprise and it’s not as hurtful or hard to receive when it is constructive feedback and can be a difficult thing to hear.
 

 
Spencer Morris (Guest): So that feedback sesh within a one-on-one is one of those most effective tools that allows for that open communication and uh a responsiveness and a u I don’t know it just it just helps people feel heard and part of the solution and part of a team that’s growing and developing. And so whether you do a suggestion box, which is totally cool as long as it’s actually being used and it’s not just something on the wall, uh but you need to hear what as a supervisor, as a leader, you need to hear what people uh on the team really think, where certain challenges are, and be able to uh effectively and openly address them. Um, so that’s why I feel like that feedback sesh, it makes it it makes it a you’re there’s a dedicated time for it and it makes it natural for it to come out where where uh a leader a true leader is accepting and seeking those opportunities to improve themselves as well as the team and the culture that’s going on.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah, I like that feedback sesh.
 
 
Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): That’s a great title for it. But I also like how you mentioned it. It’s a two-way street. It’s not just the leader to the individual. It’s back as well. And I mean, just a comparison that I was thinking of is husband and wife. You know, your partner, your spouse. Oh no, what’s she gonna say?

Spencer Morris (Guest): I can’t wait to hear,

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): just we try to have we do I need to go in the other room

Spencer Morris (Guest): Matt. I can’t wait to hear it.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): or the whole point of me sharing this is that we’re such good communicators but just yeah we we try to have like a a once a week communication a two-way thing where where it’s like how are you doing am I am I is there anything I’ve done that’s bugged you and how can I support you this week with everything you have going on and what do you have going on and and then we do it the other way around and it helps us just always stay on the same page.
 
 
Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): You know, if you’re only having one conversation when you’re bugged with somebody, then it’s pretty emotional and upsetting. But if you’re having that regular communication ongoing, then you can actually talk about those uncomfortable things and have it be positive.

Spencer Morris (Guest): Oh, absolutely. And if that conversation doesn’t happen in the first place, every time that situation occurs, then it just gets more annoying. It frustrates you even a little bit more. And if you have the conversation once and you bring it up,

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

Spencer Morris (Guest): uh it doesn’t necessarily mean that that solution’s going to be resolved. Uh so therefore, that open ongoing communication allows for those solutions to really become reality. Uh and so and and you said it, it’s not just in a work relationship with a spouse, with friends, family, whatever it may be. That open communication makes a huge difference. And in my opinion, it’s because it encourages humility. It encourages gratitude. And it allows for uh leaders in the work setting to recognize that, hey, I don’t have all the answers.
 
  
Spencer Morris (Guest): I shouldn’t have all the answers. I don’t have all the skills that I need, but by giving me feedback, I have the opportunity to get a little bit better, to improve myself a little bit more. Just humility is probably one of the greatest qualities any great leader could have.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): I totally agree. It’s critically important because then you’re open to receiving that feedback and you can use it to actually be better, which is huge. I want to share a quick little strategy that I think can work really well in these one-on- ones and that is the sandwiching method. I don’t know if that’s really the name of it, but you start out with positivity. Give them really good positive feedback. This is what you’re doing great at. I loved what the work you put in on that project. Thanks for always being on time. Whatever it is. And then, you know, whatever that little concern is. And maybe just do one every one for your one ones.
 
 
Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah. One of them was just like, “Yeah, if we could maybe work on this, that’d be awesome.” And then finishing with another leg. Thanks again. We’re so glad you’re on our team. You know, sandwiching it can really help. You know, if you have that little piece of I don’t know ingredient you don’t like in there, it makes it easier to eat.

Spencer Morris (Guest): Yes, positive the positive feedback has to be something that is coming on a regular basis because that is

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): So

Spencer Morris (Guest): also going to help the constructive or the hard feedback uh that’ll help that be received a lot more. But the reality is that a great leader, when they’re recognizing the really great contributions of the team around them, they’re going to be recognized and they need to do that. It needs to be authentic. It needs to be genuine. Um and then that also makes it so much easier to give that hard feedback. So I do like that approach for sure.
 
 
Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): So, I want to jump to one of our other questions that we had talked about previously. I think we’ve dug deep on a few of these. So, here’s the next one. Spencer, how should a leader balance holding team members accountable? Because, you know, these one-on-one conversations, they’re related to performance, right, and feedback. So, how do how do leaders balance holding their team members accountable with caring for the

Spencer Morris (Guest): Such a good question. Such a good question.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): person

Spencer Morris (Guest): And the reality is I feel like those go hand in hand because if we think about our interactions with people that we care about the most. Think of our kids. If you have kids, I know you guys have kids. You have five kids. That’s amazing. But when you think about that relationship with your kids, as part of the way that you show that you care about them, you hold them accountable. You hold them to a standard that you know is best for them, right?
 
  
Spencer Morris (Guest): you know that that’s important for their own growth and development. Therefore, you’re going to hold them to that higher standard. And it’s the same thing with individuals that a leader would work with. If they genuinely care about that individual, they’re going to hold them to that high standard. They’re going to hold them accountable. And it’s one of the best ways that you can show that you care about them. Now, I think it’s also important just to communicate that. I know this is a hard conversation and I’m and I’m holding you to the I’m holding you accountable here, but I want you to know it’s because I care about you. I care about your success here at this uh organization as part of this team. I care about you. I care about you succeeding and achieving your dreams. And that’s why I’m going to hold you to the standard and make sure that we’re not letting it slip because, you know, it’s uncomfortable or or because I like you as a person as well.
 
  
Spencer Morris (Guest): So that’s why I feel like those go hand in hand. Um because you can get someone who can get a little heavy on either side, right? They can get heavy on the accountability side and it’s all about, you know, achieving this and achieving that and then they forget the aspect of the caring, but they could also get a little bit heavy on the caring aspect and not be holding someone accountable either. So there is a balance that needs to be met, but I do feel like those two go hand in hand. And you cannot you cannot show someone that you truly care about them without holding them accountable and holding them to that high

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): You know,

Spencer Morris (Guest): standard.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): when a company puts a person in a people leadership role, they’re essentially giving them two customers. One customer is the company and the company’s interests and the other customer is their team member and their team members interests. And people leaders have to remember that they’re put in charge of balancing those two um customers and their needs.
 
 
Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): And it seems so obvious, but I didn’t even really think about it this way of what you said. just very directly tell them I’m holding you accountable because I care. And that’s not going to feel real if you’re talking behind their back, if you’re not, you know, saying nice things or or answering emails, doing what you say you will do. Like all those little things between the one-on- ones show if you actually care. Um and then when you say it, it either has meaning or it doesn’t. So everything kind of connects together. But yeah, I guess I can’t understand the importance of literally and just telling them um I’m holding you accountable because I care. I think that’s

Spencer Morris (Guest): Absolutely. And I love the way you just described that.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): huge.

Spencer Morris (Guest): But yeah, be open, be honest about it. That explains to them why it’s so important and when you’re caring about them enough to hold them accountable, it is for their own progress.
 
 
Spencer Morris (Guest): It is for their own good. And I think oftentimes leaders just get in lots of hard conversations, even in a situation where they don’t know exactly how to say it. Be open about that. I’m not sure. I’m trying to make sure that I communicate this in a way that’s going to be effective and I’m not sure I’m going to communicate it just right. So, please bear with me as I’m trying to communicate this. I feel like the vulnerability of a leader can go a long long way as far as good communication and mutual growth between two individuals.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): We’ve dived right in. We’ve wasted no time in the meat of this conversation. As we kind of close up here, what advice would you have? Most of our listeners are probably people leaders or or they’re working in HR. Um, so what advice would you have just for getting started in this or for moving on from a struggle with a team member? What what final advice would you
 
  
Spencer Morris (Guest): So my my advice for any individual or any team is to

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): give

Spencer Morris (Guest): invest in leadership. Uh leadership investment that’s something that you can do in yourself and that’s something that you can do for other individuals as well. And I genuinely believe that a team’s culture is limited to the leadership investment that they’re willing to put forth. You know,

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Well,

Spencer Morris (Guest): example or or a an imagery, if you will, someone that decides, I want to now become a bodybuilder and they go into the gym and uh it would be foolish to expect them to be able to go ahead and bench 250 pounds right from the get-go, right? But it is something that they can do if they are willing to put forth the effort and develop and increase their capacity. Well, the same thing when it comes to an individual or or a team when they want to develop their culture and create something truly special, they have to develop and expand the capacity that they have to do so which is in that leadership development.

 
Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Okay.

Spencer Morris (Guest): good leaders lead, and great leaders multiply.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Oh, yes.

Spencer Morris (Guest): The re the reality is is that the best measure of a leader is the the

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): I love that.

Spencer Morris (Guest): leadership development in the people around them. And so a great leader is going to go in and create and develop and grow other leaders around them. And when you think about the effect that that has on a group where it’s not just one leader and everybody’s following, but that one leader is creating more and more leaders are doing more for their people and they’re doing it for their people. You have an organization that becomes almost unstoppable because of that multiplier effect. So good leaders lead, great leaders multiply.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): whether it’s your whether you thought of it or not, it’s profound and and I and you obviously understand it well enough to make it work for you. So, I love that. Good leaders lead, great leaders multiply. And that’s such such a great note to end on. Thank you so much, Spencer, today. The conversation was awesome. So many actionable takeaways. We’ll include a link to his website and his LinkedIn on our highlight article. And everybody, tune in next time. Yeah. Thank you,

Spencer Morris (Guest): Thank you both. You guys are amazing.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Spencer.

Spencer Morris (Guest): I really appreciate it. Thank you so much.

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Thank you.