Matt Vance: Today we’re meeting with a very special guest all the way from Dublin, Ireland. We’d like to welcome Aoife O’Brien, host of the happier at work podcast and founder of happier at work, the careers and culture platforms. So thanks for being with us today.

Aoife O’Brien: Thank you so much, Matt and Crista. It’s my absolute pleasure to be here today.

Matt Vance: Let’s hear a little bit about Aoife. So Ifa O’Brien is a company culture expert, public speaker, and winning podcast host, she can consult a wide variety of organizations on how to increase retention and productivity of teams while creating a positive and engaging work experience, with a background and data analytics. From the CpG industry, Aoife takes the pragmatic approach to culture strategy with a personal touch. Very impressive and while we were talking, I loved hearing a little bit more about some of the work you’ve done with data analytics of retail spaces and kind of that experience. And I guess maybe speak to us a little bit about how that transitioned over to where you are today.

Aoife O’Brien: Yeah, absolutely. I mean for me it was a career that I loved. I did it for almost 20 years. I’m so interested in data and its application. What we can use it for and I found myself in some work situations that weren’t really working out. For me, it wasn’t really good fish when I didn’t understand that terminology at the time, but when I look back at that time, I think it just wasn’t a good fish for me, both from a culture perspective and from a strength perspective as well. So, I left my long term career, and I went off, and I did some coach training and masters, and organizational behavior. And when I was doing the masters, it was the application. It was the data, the research, and the people aspect of it that really let me up. Because when I had been working in corpus,

Aoife O’Brien: I always try to understand, what could I have done differently or what should the organization be doing differently. So, always thinking from the people’s perspective, how can we do things differently? How can we continually innovate? And how do we make sure that things like this? Don’t happen in the first place. So, taking everything that I’ve learned there and applying it I suppose in this new space where it’s looking more at the people’s side of things.

Matt Vance: That’s way impressive, that’s really neat. And we know you’re calling in from, tell us again where he is calling in.

Aoife O’Brien: Tenerife, which is in the Canary Islands, which is part of Spain.

Matt Vance: Okay.

Aoife O’Brien: But off the coast of Africa. So if anyone is watching the video, I’m not sure if you’re watching the video today, It’s very warm here today. Yeah.

Matt Vance: Yeah, and where we’re from is on the cooler side and so she’s across the world. You’re also from Dublin and I know you love to travel. tell us a little bit about some of the best places you’ve been to and we know you’ve been all over the world, right?

Aoife O’Brien: Yeah, pretty much. So I lived and worked in London for three and a half years after leaving Dublin, and I traveled around South East Asia for five or six months. And then, I spent about two and a half years living and traveling around Australia. In that time, I traveled around New Zealand for four weeks as well. And I went to Hawaii on my way back and I traveled around the States for a little while, and a little bit of Canada. I came home for Christmas and then I came back to the States and I went down to South Center Miami, and I went around South America, then for about five or six months again, which included a trip to Antarctica and the Galapagos Islands.

00:05:00

Matt Vance: Holy cow.

Aoife O’Brien: So, I’ve done a huge amount of travel. And I absolutely love her. I think I love meeting new people. I love exploring the world and seeing things, especially if it’s

Aoife O’Brien: That you’re familiar with. If you’ve seen images or videos or documentaries or something and then you go and actually get to experience that first hand and try to pick a best place, it is really, really hard. but one place I think that I didn’t know much about and I didn’t have very high expectations was around southern Argentina and Chile, where you can do loads of hiking,…

Matt Vance: 

Aoife O’Brien: it’s in the mountains and just the scenery was absolutely fantastic and I didn’t really know much about the area.

Aoife O’Brien: Obviously having been to Antarctica. It’s very unusual and…

Matt Vance: Yes.

Aoife O’Brien: not a lot of people have been there. So that was also a big highlight for me and I think people haven’t seen images and things. You sort of know what to expect, but it’s the sensation of being there, it’s like the end of the world. And then another highlight that I mentioned a second ago,…

Matt Vance: Yeah.

Aoife O’Brien: the Galapagos Islands. just the sheer amount of wildlife that they have there and being able to get up close and personal and they’re not afraid of humans. It’s very much interactive and that was just absolutely stoning as well.

Matt Vance: Wow, holy cow. Did you see a lot of the animals in the Galapagos Islands as well? The birds and

Aoife O’Brien: The birds, the lizards, the seals and sea lions. And we went swimming and snorkeling and it was just stunning.

Matt Vance: my heavens.

Aoife O’Brien: Yeah, yeah, really would highly recommend it for anyone to go there?

Matt Vance: And that is remarkable. And, talk about, quite the experienced, traveling the world. And now you’re in this new world of company culture, you had this other career life in retail and CpG and doing data analytics, and now you’ve leveled up with all this different experience and training organizational, behavior and strategy there, I think it’s amazing. So Maybe talk to us a little bit more about how you came to find podcast happier at work as, the culture.

Aoife O’Brien: Yeah. So as I mentioned earlier, it really sprung from my own dissatisfaction at work. So I had an experience when I was working in Australia, I had a fantastic experience working in one organization for six months and I left and I worked on the other side of Australia. And they were very kind to sponsor my visa and all sorts of brilliant things, but I found within a couple of months, I realized it wasn’t really the place for me now when you’re sponsored with a visa, it makes the decision and that little bit more awkward about What is my next move here? How can I rectify the situation? So I did try to kind of rectify things but I just found it wasn’t really going anywhere, so that was kind of an accident. Number one, let’s say, and then As I mentioned, I took some primate to travel, and I traveled quite a bit and I ended up back in Dublin.

Aoife O’Brien: Having previously been in London and having all these harbors, this desire to go and live in New York. I did end up back in Dublin and I worked there in an organization for four and a half years, which was a bit of a roller coaster. So it wasn’t as toxic as the previous place. But it was not a good fit for me. It wasn’t the right place. It wasn’t craving. When I do something, I want to do it really well. And I didn’t feel like I had the opportunity to do that there. So I left. And I went on to do the study that I mentioned and podcasts came about because I am such an avid podcast listener. I love listening to podcasts, I love it as a format. I love learning things. I love being inspired by other people, so I thought I have this idea that I want to get out in the world. I’m just gonna start it. So I had a microphone, I signed up for a soundcloud account or at least I had to thank the county already and I just started uploading podcast, they are created or feet and

Aoife O’Brien: So they say it is history and it’s something I learned that I’m actually quite good at and that I really enjoy doing as well.

Matt Vance: And we know you have over a hundred episodes now. Is that right? Yeah.

Aoife O’Brien: Yeah, 170.

Matt Vance: What’s that? What? Okay.

Aoife O’Brien: Something. It’ll be 200 in March.

Matt Vance: We’re total, newbies. Holy cow. That’s something to celebrate for sure. That’s something

Aoife O’Brien: Yeah, definitely definitely. Yeah, there’s already plans for us to do something special in March to celebrate 200 episodes.

Matt Vance: 

Matt Vance: That’s such an accomplishment, I mean, having done, just a little over 10. Now I can’t even imagine that’s just so, to stick with something for that long. That’s amazing.

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Aoife O’Brien: Yeah, yeah, it’s streamlined. It’s automated, all things again that I didn’t know that I was good at but it’s the understanding of the systems and how to make things work better for me and how to make things more efficient. I’m earning a lot of what I thought and realizing that I’m actually quite good at it as well, so that’s good.

Matt Vance: You are. Yeah and for those who are listening, definitely check out the happy hour happier at work podcast, it really will add to and we are the same audience. I think so and so I think anyone listening to our podcast would definitely gain a lot from yours as well. So we’re super happy to have you here and…

Aoife O’Brien: Thank you, yes.

Matt Vance: what you mentioned was fit. So you felt like you didn’t fit in at that company and…

Aoife O’Brien: Yeah.

Matt Vance: tell us a little bit about the importance of fit and how that works.

Aoife O’Brien: Yeah, yeah, and when I started my masters, I had a conversation at one of the lectures explaining what had happened in my previous two work environments and she mentioned that this must be a theater issue. So I became obsessed with this idea. I did all my research around it and there’s so many different ways to measure it. And what I ended up doing was my entire dissertation around any opportunity to do paper on their side. We had a choice of what we could cover. That was what I was doing and at the end of that oftentimes they say that you’ll be sick of whatever topic he chose for your dissertation ice. I still have so much more to learn about it and I love learning more about it but really I looked at Environmental Fish and the core pillars. If you like at work, this idea of values. understanding what your values are and how closely that is aligned with the organization and then need satisfaction.

Aoife O’Brien: That work. So we have three courses, psychological needs that. We all have, which are related and autonomy, being a sense of choice and control over what you do and how you do it. Relatedness, then, is how you get along with other people, but also how you relate, what you do on a day-to-day basis, to the impacts that you’re having on the organization. They’re objectives and their results. And then competence is a feeling of capability over what you’re doing. Do you feel like you’re capable of doing the job, or is this too much of a stretch for you? Or is it not enough of a stretch maybe you’re feeling a bit forward or complacent and then the third aspect

Aoife O’Brien: the academic jargon was talking about demands and abilities but I kind of changed that around to talk more about strengths. So if we can understand what our strengths are at work we’re good at what, we’re naturally good at and build on those rather than trying to mitigate our weaknesses is really important to do that at work and to feel like you’re thriving and to feel like you’re being challenged and that you’re doing stuff that’s important. And that’s using the abilities that you have. And so, they are the core elements of it. So, it’s the peace and the strength piece although I’m changing the language around on it a little bit. So values is kind of more like culture needs is around balance because you need to find the balance between having

Aoife O’Brien: And too little autonomy where you could feel a bit directionless or feel like you’re being micromanaged and then the strength piece is not just solely about understanding strengths. It’s about empowering people to take responsibility and to understand what their strengths are and empowering leaders to focus on strengths instead of the development areas.

Matt Vance: That’s incredibly fascinating, and very detailed. And, it makes me think of liot. Jacques. He was a Canadian psychoanalyst. I don’t know if you’ve heard of him, but he’s the man.

Aoife O’Brien: No, what happens? No.

Matt Vance: You should look him up. He’s the man that coined the term company culture.

Aoife O’Brien: Okay. No, I didn’t know that.

Matt Vance: He’s an interesting guy. He wrote a book called The Changing Culture and I think it was 1952. He studied an organization in the UK, I think it was still a manufacturing plant for a period of two years and observed the different behaviors of individuals and teams and he ended up theorizing their eight principles of I guess prerequisites to earn from team members there. Full commitment is the terminology he used. And I think that really ties into this principle of fit that you’re talking about and he mentioned things like leadership vision, having an understanding psychological safety was one and there’s eight and one of them was job. I don’t know if he used the word fit or not, but, alignment with the position like skills to,…

00:15:00

Aoife O’Brien: Yeah.

Matt Vance: to the role. So, I think the way that you spoke to this, I think is really insightful for everyone listening is. As you think about your own job where you are right now, have a little bit of introspection to think about, what are your own personal values and what are the listed values of the company? And maybe how does that differ from the lived values of the company?

Aoife O’Brien: Yeah. Exactly.

Matt Vance: Sometimes, there’s a misalignment there And so I think that’s really cool. The autonomy relatedness competence and then strengths in conjunction with the position. And if you feel capable of doing that thing, everyone wants to fill that. So those incredible insights, thank you for sharing that. Yeah, and so I love to hear so, if there is a misalignment What? a person does, if they’ve done the introspection and they think that maybe, either their values. Don’t align with the company or maybe they’re capabilities, or something else. What do they do if there’s a misalignment there?

Aoife O’Brien: Yeah I think I mean the first thing to address is that oftentimes people don’t take the time for that introspection and if you had asked me five years ago, What are your values? I would have no idea what your needs are.

Matt Vance: Yeah.

Aoife O’Brien: I have absolutely zero ideas. So a lot of time we don’t know and if we’re asked about values we kind of maybe default to whatever is on the wall or on the email signature that the company’s values and…

Matt Vance: Yeah.

Aoife O’Brien: as much said as well that those are not necessarily they lived experience of the people who are there. So I personally have experienced a couple of places where I realized that and again I didn’t have the terminology at the time. I didn’t know

Aoife O’Brien: I may have said this because that is kind of a bit more broadly used, but the kind of academic jargon. I wasn’t really familiar with it and so for me there was one place that I knew was just toxic, it wasn’t a good fit and I had to leave. I just had to get out of there. I had to get out of that situation for myself for my own mental health and then another situation where it wasn’t toxic for everyone. But it was toxic for me because I wasn’t thriving in that environment. It wasn’t the right place for me at all. I had a conversation with my manager. It was a large global organization. So there would have been opportunities to move around to take a different role. I did have that conversation. It didn’t really go anywhere or at least it didn’t go as quickly as I would have liked. Again I think the pace of how things work in an organization is really important.

Aoife O’Brien: And something that I have realized myself, that I work at quite a fast pace, I like things to happen quickly. So if I mean in an organization that’s very bureaucratic and things take months to get over the line, that would be really frustrating for me. So it wasn’t really happening quickly and I just made the decision that it’s not the right place for me at all and I left without anything to go to. I didn’t know what I was going to end up doing next and that’s when I discovered coaching and I went and pursued that as a field of study and then started my masters and then started the business, which was totally unexpected, but that’s kind of how I ended up. So I think having a conversation initially has that conversation, if you feel like your strength or not being used at work, if you have so much more to give a lot of the time, people talk about untapped potential and I did a Scientific poll on LinkedIn. Probably about a year ago and 80% of people, which even surprised me 80%.

Aoife O’Brien: People said that they weren’t reaching their full potential through their work. And, it’s really disheartening to hear things like that when people feel like they have so much more to give at work, but they’re not having those opportunities to give that whether they’re overworked, whether they just are not in the right role to shine, whatever it might be. People often feel like they still have something inside of them, that they kind of want to give to their work.

Matt Vance: Interesting. So maybe an indicator to be introspective is dissatisfaction, or …

Aoife O’Brien: Yeah.

Matt Vance: you mentioned toxic hat feeling like you’re in a toxic workplace for you or even beyond yourself but that kind of ignites that introspection. And then, you look well, what is it? That’s not lining up here and…

Aoife O’Brien: Yeah.

Matt Vance: it’s something that can be changed and if not, then essentially you want to exit the organization.

Aoife O’Brien: That’s exactly. Yes, Yeah, I think that’s the spur often is what’s going on and we have a tendency I think to blame the situation or to blame other people but what responsibility can you take for yourself in this situation rather than putting the blame outwards? If you want to take full responsibility, what does it mean to have a difficult conversation? What does that actually look like for you? I think it’s important to recognize that, thank you. I love that explanation Crista

00:20:00

Matt Vance: So do you have any recommendations to people who? Are wanting to do that introspection like are there things that they can do to kind of help them identify what their values are or …

Aoife O’Brien: Absolutely. Yeah,…

Matt Vance: what they’re something.

Aoife O’Brien: I mean capabilities I’ll start with first because I think it’s easier. There are so many tools online that you can take for free to discover what your strengths are. And maybe you knew they were your strengths already, or maybe you didn’t. But I think that things that we should recognize with strengths is that oftentimes, we don’t know our strengths, because they come so easy, and naturally to us. Like I said, I’m just covering these things now. And, people will say the example, I always think of it’s great rooms. I love escape rooms. I’m not sure if you’ve ever done one, but I’ll go in and I’ll see the clue and I’m like, that is connected with that and people like, Hey, how did you do that? That’s easy. How did you not do that? So that ‘s thinking, things like that, Where are you showing up? Where people at home hedge to do that, or how to do that, so quickly, or can you show me how to do that or…

Matt Vance: Yeah.

Aoife O’Brien: saying that you’re good at something that other people are recognizing in you that you’re good?

Aoife O’Brien: Things. So I think that’s the strength of the value piece. It’s probably a little bit more complex to try and understand it and it’s a longer process and it’s an ongoing process I think as well. So for me there’s a couple of ways you can look at it so you can think about How do you want to spend your time? So for me learning is really important and learning can maybe be tied in with the old of the travel that I’ve done. I’m exploring the world. It’s a really nice way to learn and to meet new people and to connect with people as well. You can think about how you spend your time, how you spend your energy, how you spend your money, who are the people that you spend time with? What are the things that you have surrounding you in your home as well? Do you have pictures of family on the wall? Do you have accolades on the wall? What are the things that are important to you? Because you’re going to demonstrate them in your life?

Aoife O’Brien: Another way to think about it is what are things that really bother you. So something that I’m discovering that’s really bothering me is things that are inefficient. So if I see waste, or if I see things that are much slower than what they need to be really frustrated, I can say that efficiency is maybe one of my core values. When I said this to someone else, she was like efficiency makes me really quiet and robotic or something. And you need to add in generosity there as well…

Matt Vance: Yeah.

Aoife O’Brien: because you very generous

Aoife O’Brien: Time and with your knowledge. So I think it’s a process of thinking about all of these things, tying them together with the common thread to understand. What are the things that I hold dear. What are the things? And if you think about bodies as something that it’s not related to money whatsoever and in fact money, when it goes out the window, even if it’s something that will cost you money, you would still stand your ground for this thing that you believe. strongly So, if you think about values in a nutshell, it’s something that you stand for, knowing what you stand for, and knowing what you stand against, and being able to articulate that in a way. And so bringing that into an organization, it’s looking at the behaviors around you, and we tend to apply our own values on to other people. So, the expectations we have of ourselves in relation to our bodies are the

Aoife O’Brien: Excuse me, the expectations that we place on others and so we see them behaving in a way that misaligns with how we think they should be behaving. Then that jars with us and you feel like an internal conflict. You want to say something. Maybe you don’t feel comfortable saying something but it causes an internal conflict and that’s kind of how it manifests.

Matt Vance: Okay, it’s kind of a dissonance and you either synchronize with the culture.

Aoife O’Brien: That’s who so valuable points from there. Thank you so much for articulation about and it’s a right because we want to feel like we belong in the organization. So sometimes we change ourselves. We mold ourselves to feel that greater sense of belonging with other people. But then, other times, there is this kind of, like you say, dissonance. So I don’t feel it. And I think I had both of those experiences in the past and the environment that we’re in has a huge impact on us, in the same way that we have an impact on the environment. And I think, Matt, we spoke about this last week. It’s not just a case of, I am joining this organization, and the values are a collection of human beings. They’re their relationships. It’s how we interact with people, on a day-to-day basis, essentially. So it’s not just thinking this in the abstract it’s thinking about, what’s the reality when I joined this organization and how are people showing

00:25:00

Aoife O’Brien: Milk and how are the relationships that I have with them I want to actually be here? Or do I want to remove myself from this situation? if it’s not something that feels good?

Matt Vance: I think that’s really powerful and for everyone, listen. We have to realize that we’re in the driver seat of our own life, of our own careers and our own experiences. And some things it’s okay for us to have some radical candor and try to address things like some misalignments, some elements of dissonance in our work experience, we can address and it’s worth doing that. But something even expected. I would say, Yeah, it’s going to happen. Yeah, we shouldn’t be walking around as these entitled beings that just need everything to rain down on us perfectly. According to our checkbook, we’re here.

Aoife O’Brien: Sometimes we feel that way though. We feel like I’m doing such a great job. So I should be recognized for that.

Matt Vance: Yeah.

Aoife O’Brien: What I need to tell everyone, how great of a job I’m doing for that.

Matt Vance: 100 A hundred percent.

Aoife O’Brien: It’s an important reminder.

Matt Vance: And another thing that I would say is, Sometimes there are seasons in our career where there’s an alignment for a time and we outgrow it in a certain way because we’re growing,…

Aoife O’Brien: True.

Matt Vance: and we’re thinking,…

Aoife O’Brien: So true.

Matt Vance: and I’ve experienced that firsthand. And I went from a company that was the best place to work. Very much on purpose. I wanted to go to another company that had a lower reputation for a company culture, and that was because I wanted to help affect change. And so, I had a personal value of going somewhere that didn’t check all the boxes.

Matt Vance: On purpose, because I wanted to be part of the change. And so I think for everyone listening,…

Aoife O’Brien: Mmm.

Matt Vance: I hope that you get some ideas that you can personalize to yourself and think about what you value and how your current work experience is. But don’t let any list from someone else. Be the absolute checklist. Remember, it’s your life, you’re in the driver seat, Think about what makes sense for you. I like to think of it, as, must have and nice to have elements that are. and…

Aoife O’Brien: I love that.

Matt Vance: Then that kind of makes it a little easier because the nice to have you can be a little bit more loose on those things. And maybe, towards something later on in your career you don’t have everything today,…

Aoife O’Brien: Yeah.

Matt Vance: you can Sacrifice a little bit for the future and…

Aoife O’Brien: Yeah.

Matt Vance: one other thing I want to hear is what your thoughts are on this. If about one other thing to all of our HR managers, and people leaders that are going, what are you doing in this episode? You’re making everyone want to leave. stop. There’s a book called Who Moved My Teas. That’s kind of about the same prince.

Aoife O’Brien: I will. Okay, there’s my tea.

Matt Vance: Okay, box through this like you have that…

Aoife O’Brien: I love it.

Matt Vance: if you have a conversation with yourself, but really organizations are collections of people and people are complex and…

Aoife O’Brien: 

Matt Vance: We have human needs. While the business has business needs and for those two to work together for everyone to win,…

Aoife O’Brien: Yeah.

Matt Vance: It’s this ongoing thing. We’re not computers. We can’t just be programmed. And we have emotions, we have feelings. And so things are gonna change over time. And we have to be honest with ourselves. And if there’s a significant misalignment or misalignment, then yes, it makes sense for us to leave. Ultimately will be a net negative for the company and for If we just allow ourselves to be in this situation that does in the line. So it’s okay to be challenged sometimes and move on to that next position. Even if it’s in the same company or a different organization and that will help you be your company’s best. Employee teams where they can be their best. And so there has to be this kind of mutual thing.

Aoife O’Brien: Yeah.

Matt Vance: Lots of thoughts. But yeah, I want to see if you have anything up.

Aoife O’Brien: Yeah, no totally. And I think Yeah if people are listening today thinking Okay so that’s very well from an individual perspective. How do we do that from a company perspective? I think. Going back to your earlier point. Matt understands what those values are, if you don’t have your values To define your values to find what is important to the company and through that, they’re meaningful for the people who work there. So it’s really important. I think to get the entire staff involved in the creation of what the values are and in agreement of what like. What does the behavior look like? What is going against the value? So, first of all, define them, second of all, make sure they are. The lived experience, Is this what people are experiencing at work on a day to day basis? Or is there a way that somehow if you’re more senior, it’s okay, if you do something else because that type of behavior will trickle down into the organization and if it’s not stamped out if it’s not

00:30:00

Aoife O’Brien: in a positive way. Then it’s going to filter into the entire organization. And suddenly, the values are meaningless. And if there’s one value I always think of this value of simple in the most complex organization I ever worked in. And when you say something is simple or that you value simplicity, and you make things so complex that it’s hard for people to do anything. Then there’s a misalignment there and people don’t really trust what you talk about, what you say, and they don’t trust in the other bodies either. So I think knowing what those values are makes sure that they’re lived and the people are equipped to have conversations to address issues where they are not being lived. But they’re equally celebrated for living the values and for demonstrating the values on a day to day basis, I think that’s really really important.

Aoife O’Brien: Building on that. Then when you’re hiring people, it’s important to know what those values are and higher for culture and higher for values and strengths, I think, at the same time, so you don’t have to hire for skills. You don’t have to hire for a number of years of experience, find out if the person is a good fit, culturally by understanding the things that are important to them and how they relate to the things that are important to the organization. And also at the same time, understanding what are their natural strengths and abilities? And how are they going to fit in with the rest of the team? So, from a culture perspective, you can look at the organization and the manager from the team itself as well. And then also understanding, how are they fitting in, in terms of the role? So are they going to get to use their strengths in this role that we’re putting them in?

Matt Vance: I love that. I think, you mentioned kind of a two-faced perspective if a company’s not acting the way that they say they are right and you almost described a company as if they were a person and it’s kind of a similar process on both sides,…

Aoife O’Brien: Yeah.

Matt Vance: defining your value, having introspection just on that company level and then implementing that and I think probably it’s the interview process where that has the biggest impact because it can be tricky to fire or find the right place for a person after you’ve already hired them. And so that interview is crucial and…

Aoife O’Brien: Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Vance: gearing your questions not as much about how many years of experience have you had or tell me about if you can do.

Aoife O’Brien: In this hypothetical situation,…

Matt Vance: So feels.

Aoife O’Brien: What would you do?

Matt Vance: Yeah. Yeah.

Aoife O’Brien: If they understand them as a person, I think and…

Matt Vance: Finding those guys.

Aoife O’Brien: And it’s very costly for companies to get that wrong. So if you bring the wrong person into the organization, how much time and energy have you invested into that situation. It’s so important to get that, I think from the gecko, it’s important to make sure that you do it, right? Because like you say I mean the regulations are a bit stricter in Europe than there will be in the States. So I know it’s easier to fire people in the States than it would be in Europe. But even so, if you bring someone into an organization, if they’re not doing what’s expected, it’s felt in the entire organization. If it’s a small group of people,…

Matt Vance: Right. Yeah.

Aoife O’Brien: It’s really felt and you have to deal with this and you have to deal with it really quickly. So I think for that reason, it’s important to address that upfront. So you make sure that you do bring the right people in. I always talk about the right people as opposed to everyone that they’re looking for the best talent. It’s about finding the right one.

Aoife O’Brien: Onto your organization. So who are the right people to be in that role?

Matt Vance: I think that’s a great point to kind of wrap. Our conversation is about the right alignment, both with the people that you’re trying to hire and the company that you want to be in the position that you want to be in the team that you want to be in. And it’s worth taking the time to have that conversation with yourself for your own career. And for those that are people leaders and hires or hiring, it’s important. To do that as well. And for everyone listening, thanks for being here. Make sure to go check out the happier at work podcasts with Aoife, it’s incredible and make sure to follow the culture profit. If you love this episode, leave a review. Subscribe, Tell your friends and thanks for being here with us. Thanks Aoife.

Aoife O’Brien: Thank you so much. Matt and Chris absolutely love this conversation, I can’t wait to listen back.