Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Welcome everyone. Today is all about navigating layoffs. Whether you’ve been laid off, you have a friend who’s going through the job search, or you’re a people leader supporting your team through a downsize, this episode is for you. We’re chatting with Jacelle Damian, an experienced career transition coach at Keystone Partners in the Houston, Texas area. So Jacelle, thanks for joining us today.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Thank you so much. I appreciate being

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): We’re excited to have you.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): here.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): And today, we’d love for you to do a little introduction of yourself and just tell us how you got into the outplacement industry.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Yes, of course. So, I am a senior career consultant and it’s interesting because I wouldn’t necessarily say that by accident I got into this field, but was certainly not what I was expecting for my career. Uh but basically I worked for a staffing agency that offered outplacement services. Uh I have to admit before I joined the team I didn’t even know what outplacement was even though we were in HR right.
 

 
Giselle Damian (Guest): Uh but from there there was a team that was needing an additional consultant. There was an influx of work in uh programs that they were providing to individuals that were being affected by layoffs and the rest is history. That’s how I ended up joining the team. It was for a short term originally, but then it ended up getting uh transition over to a permanent

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Okay.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): role.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Wow. So, as you’re helping these individuals who are going through a transition, like a career transition, um like what does the day-to-day look like for you? Like how many calls are you taking? What do those calls

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Yes. Yes.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): entail?

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Well, I work with quite a bit of people. So, I’d say on average I probably work with about 50 individuals and that can go up and down a little bit. Uh, but as far as my day-to-day, I’m meeting with about five to six individuals. So, we do one-on-one meetings for about 45 minutes an hour.
 
  
Giselle Damian (Guest): Yeah. Each one. And then depending, sometimes we meet weekly, sometimes bi-weekly. It just depends on the cadence that they that they

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Okay. So,

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): want.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): you’re kind of helping them through that journey of finding their next opportunity.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Correct. Yes. So it’s part of the career transition. So it’s the time period after they get notification of their layoff and we hope that you know we can get them prepared for their next opportunity. Sometimes that’s landing another role very similar. Sometimes it’s pivoting uh to a different industry. Sometimes uh other times it’s entrepreneurship. And then occasionally we do get individuals that are looking into retirement, either semi-retirement or full

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Okay. I I can’t tell you like I feel like the last two probably two to three

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): retirement.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): years we’ve seen so many layoffs happen and some of those more firsthand like when when uh Matt’s last job that he worked at he had to be the one that was laying off people which was hard but um so with that I’m sure you get some people who are a little emotional it’s probably fresh and they come to you and need need someone to listen to them.
 
 
Giselle Damian (Guest): Yes.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): And how do you help them get through that like emotional shock

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Yes. It’s tough. Uh I’d say a lot of times it’s comforting that I’ve I’ve been

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): initially?

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): there. I’ve been laid off in the past and I experienced every single emotion under the sun. I consider myself to be, you know, someone that’s pretty in tune with their emotions and it was hard.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): You can relate. Yeah.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): It was tough. It’s tough. maybe even more than some people care to admit because there’s it’s kind of a taboo topic a lot of times and I feel like we’re ever since COVID and and layoffs even though they’ve been occurring

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): for you know forever but I feel like we’re seeing a lot more now so I think people are are becoming a little bit more familiarized with it even if they themselves haven’t been through it

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): No.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): but uh what I’m usually walking through with my clients is that it’s completely normal to feel what they’re feeling.
 
 
Giselle Damian (Guest): And sometimes they could feel like they’re skipping, you know, an emotion like, “Oh, I’ve already accepted it. I’m not going to be angry. I’m not going to be, you know, upset.” But sometimes it has an interesting way of creeping back up. Uh maybe not immediately, but sometimes a few weeks or sometimes even a few months down the road. So I just explained that, hey, I’ve been there. I’ve been in your shoes. I understand how it feels. And then just giving them reassurance that, hey, it’s okay to feel that way. If you want to be upset for the week, you know, be upset, but we’re going to work on maybe trying to change that,

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): taking those steps.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): tailor that perspective a little

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah. Yeah.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): bit.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): It’s it’s it’s a lot to have that experience and it probably feels very vulnerable to, you know, even talk to somebody about it,

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Yes.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): but also I’m sure that a lot of the emotions they’re going through are just like feeling like they’re not good enough to stay at that job or, you know, it’s hard to not take those kinds of things personally.
 
 
Giselle Damian (Guest): Yes, it is. And it’s interesting because we say don’t take it personally, but it’s hard because it affects you personally. So, how do you not do that, right? And it’s affecting your life.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Exactly.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): It’s affecting your family. It’s affecting the goals that you had for your career. Um, so it can be really tough, but I usually look at it as you’re mourning something and you know, loss of a friend, a loss of a family member. I’m not trying to say that it’s the exact same level, right, as losing a job, but a lot of times you’re mourning the identity, whether the identity that could have been or your work was so tied, right, to your identity, you gave it your all. So, I see it as you are mourning something and just like with a friend, you wouldn’t expect to be like, “Hey, well, you need to get up tomorrow and you need to get over it and that’s it.” No, you’re going to give them some grace, right?
 

 
Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): And so I think, you know,

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): right.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): your ability to um adapt to those different needs of the people that you’re supporting is very impressive. And I think everyone going through a layoff, they need someone to talk to. Um, maybe it’s a career coach like you, an expert,

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Yes.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): or maybe it’s a trusted friend or family member. But I would definitely say if you’re not as lucky as the people that work with you, Jacel is like to everyone listening, find someone to talk to for sure. I think

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Yes. Yes. That’s good advice.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): that’s

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): And a lot of times we’ll even ask, “What does your support system look like? Am I your only support? Do you have a family member, a friend, a loved one?” And you’d be surprised. I think the majority of people do have that support. But some people don’t. Or sometimes, again, because a layoff can be a little bit of a taboo topic. It’s, you know, it could be their parents saying, “Oh, why? Why did you get laid off?
 

 
Giselle Damian (Guest): What did you do? What could you have done differently?” So sometimes people may not feel comfortable immediately sharing the news with with a closed

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah, that’s really tough.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): one.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): And I think maybe the type of people that will be listening to this episode, maybe they’re not currently laid off, but this can help them understand, you know, what it might be like and how they can help them. And then if it is somebody that’s just been laid off, then this can be really applicable in helping them. And so strategically, what steps do you recommend these job seekers take to land their next job to to step forward in the right direction?

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Yeah, that’s a good question. Most people want to jump into applying to jobs. That’s the very first step that a lot of people do, which makes sense because you feel like, hey, I’m doing something right away, right? I’d say the very first step is to reflect. And I know, you know, people have bills to pay, they have dependence, and they may feel like they may not be able to do that.
 

 
Giselle Damian (Guest): But reflection doesn’t mean you need to reflect for months and months on end.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah. Yeah.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Reflection could be just a couple hours.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): It could be a day. It could be, you know, off and on, a week. but reflecting on what they want to do, how are they going to do it, and who are they? Because we said earlier, you know, sometimes people take it personally naturally, right? What did I do? What did I do wrong? Their self-esteem a lot of times goes down as well with it. And the feeling of rejection is really hard. I don’t think we’re meant to be rejected this much, especially whenever you’re about to enter the job search. Uh, but usually just to reflect on what it is that they want to do? What are they good at? And we’re kind of going into personal brand, which I love discussing with individuals that I work with, is like how do you want to be remembered?
 
 
Giselle Damian (Guest): What were you known for doing really well? What did you do? What kind of feedback did you get? A lot of positive feedback about what is necessary. And sometimes they’re like, you know, a lot of times they’ll say, I’ve never thought about it or I’m not sure. And so we’ll walk them through, you know, some questions to try to get to who who they

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah,

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): are.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Sometimes being laid off is as hard as it is, it can be a new start. You know, maybe it’s a wakeup call where they realize that the job that they got laid off from isn’t one that they want to be in for the long term or something. And so yeah, these reflection questions can help them tune into that and move forward. I think it can give them a lot of hope in moving forward because they know what they want and they can have confidence to find a job that will fit them.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Yes. A lot of times they’ve told me,
 

 
Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): “I’ve never thought about it.” Like, I’ve gone 20 years in my career. I’ve never thought about that. I’ve just been go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go or I’ll hear people say you know I started working since I was 16 or right out of out of high school and I’ve never really thought about it. So it seems like such a simple question but there’s there’s a lot to

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): It’s almost like in some cases it can be a forced

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): it.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): release of, you know, just kind of this routine. And if you accept that as an opportunity, you can, you know, have that conversation with yourself of what you want and what you’re good at. And um, yeah, I think that’s very powerful. I actually was talking with someone uh recently who had been laid off and they were looking for their next job and basically this individual said, “Well, I can do anything. I can do any job.
 
 
Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): You know, just give me a chance.” like whatever.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Oh yes.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Like I just need a really bad job. And I think um that’s kind of a disservice to yourself and

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Mhm.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): also to the potential employer that you’re going to because you should like what you’re doing to some extent to feel that you’re doing something meaningful in the world and then your performance is going to be better. But also when you’re searching for a job, you’re selling yourself. And so if you go to that employer and say, “I can just do any job,

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Okay.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): you know, like they want to feel like they’re getting someone who’s aligned with what they need.”

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Yes.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): And so I think it’s it actually really supercharges the job seeker

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Mhm.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): um to know for themselves what they want, what they’re good at, and what they’re seeking. And then that message to a potential employer becomes so much more powerful. I don’t. Do you get that a lot? like people that are like just any job.
 
 
Giselle Damian (Guest): Oh yes.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Just give me a

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Yes.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): chance.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): I kind of smiled actually whenever you said that because I hear every other person say that and I love the optimism, right? Like hey, it’s true.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Really?

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): We have a lot of things in our toolkit, right? We can do a lot of things but nobody wants someone that can’t specifically tell them what they can do for them or for the organization or for the team because it’s like casting a I hear a lot uh people will say I want to cast a wide net. I hear that analogy a lot. And you want to be thoughtful with where you to be and what you want to end up doing

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): because to them, you know, on the other side, they’re seeing someone that’s saying like, oh, well, they can do everything and anything. Are they confused? Like what’s their specialty, right? I say you can’t be a master at everything.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): You can be a master at a few things.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): So that’s why it’s important to pick what you want to advertise. So I’ll tell my clients you’re wearing multiple hats during the job search and at the beginning you’re your sales team, your marketing team, advertising team because you’re marketing yourself. You’re the product is what I’ll say.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Mhm.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): And so just like if you’re selling an actual product, it’s like okay, this is what the product can do. This is what it’s great for. This is what it was meant to do. So in a similar way we want to make sure that first we understand what is it that we can do or what would I enjoy doing and and then you know use that for the branding messaging or any kind of messaging whether it’s the resume or your interviewing or your LinkedIn that’s why it’s so important to start there because you don’t want any of those uh marketing materials to to not be in line with who you
 
 
Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): I think a lot of uh the discussions we’ve had with I don’t know getting a job is it’s kind of like matchmaking and if if you this is kind of a total

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Yes.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): tangent but you know if you’re doing online dating you have to set up your profile and And

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Yes.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): after dating so many people, you kind of know what kind of person you’re looking for. And then, you know, you see the job come up or the person and you’re like, “Okay, is this a fit for me?” And so, yeah, I think this reflection process is going to be essential for for helping you find that match, not not just for you to be happy,

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Yes.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): but for them to find someone who’s going to fit in their culture as well.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Yes.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): which is important for both

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Yeah.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): ends.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): It’s a mutual relationship. And I also use that example when I’m meeting with individuals. I say, “Look, you’re preparing , you’re preparing yourself for rejection.” No.
 
  
Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Perfect.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Like even when you’re dating, reflect back when you were dating. like you may have never been rejected this much in your life. So you’re getting used to it almost, right?

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Um but yes, because you are trying to be the best version that you can and of course still staying true to yourself, right? But you are, I say , like you’re a chameleon. Again, we have a lot of different skill sets, but which skill set does this particular company need? What can I help them with? So I agree. I agree with you.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): So, what are some of the next steps? Let’s say they’ve they’ve reflected,

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): After

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): they feel like they know they know what they’re looking for. They know what skills they have. Where do you take them next?

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): that, usually the resume because they’ve reflected, we want the 

messaging to reflect that now. So, we’ll review the resume. Uh, with that, I really like to take my time with it because it’s interesting what a lot of people find to be an accomplishment.
 

 
Giselle Damian (Guest): people define it differently and when I’m asking questions like have you had any accomplishments any awards and we said like no I’ve never done anything like that or I’ve never done anything cool like that or I’m just in sales or oh I’m just a you know front desk receptionist but I call them golden nuggets we have a conversation they mention something that I find interesting they might say something like oh you know I reorganized the supply closet which is a true story and I was like okay tell me a little bit more about it why did you reorganize it. And she was saying that they had a lot of duplicates of a lot of things. And so she says by doing that one, it was more organized. People were able to because it was just easier to access. But she says ultimately I’m like, how did this bring value? And she said ultimately I was saving the company money because instead of just buying and buying

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Mhm.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): things multiple times, we knew what we had in inventory.
 

 
Giselle Damian (Guest): And that was something that she would have not put in the resume otherwise. So little things like that that we can bring out to make sure it’s in the resume because they may not find it very interesting, but some someone else may find it might be exactly what they need. They might need someone that’s very organized and willing to be proactive in that way. So we’ll usually review the resume, then the LinkedIn profile. Um, and then from there, we really let them guide the program because they’re going to be at different stages. Some may have already had an interview ready. So we might have to discuss some other topics. But from there it could be networking, who to network with, what to say, just the strategy around that. It could be the actual job search. Some people haven’t searched in 10, 20 years, so they may not even know where to actually go for that. Um, and then it could be interview prep and then salary negotiations. That’s a little bit of the average topics that we
 
 
Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Okay. So,

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): discuss

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): what yeah, what recommendations would you give for starting the job search? Let’s get into that a little bit.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): to start it once you have your marketing materials ready. It would be just researching the titles a little bit. Uh it may not be the exact title that you were in before. the naming convention of titles, those vary. You know, you could have one title for one company and then it could be something completely different at another company. So, I would say just taking your time with job postings, actually reading the job descriptions, and then seeing, okay, do I have any of these skills or is this something that I can see myself doing? And just researching first and then from there if they want to apply. But uh we usually have them take a step back before they apply. And we have a couple of tools that help with the ATS or applicant tracking systems completely separate from AI. A lot of people are confused that now it’s going to be looking for key words.
 

 
Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): So we’ll review the resume, the job posting and make sure that it aligns. Although AI can help with that, again ATS is completely separate from AI.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Okay. One question I have, Jesselle, is that you talk to so many 

people who are looking for a new job.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Mhm.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Like what’s kind of the average timeline? Like it for someone listening to this, maybe they’re trying to gauge if they’re on track or if they’re maybe lagging in their job search. Like how long does it take to get to that new opportunity? And what would you say to someone who’s way past average? Maybe they’ve been at work for a really long time.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Oh,

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Um maybe could you diagnose how to help that individual? What types of things should they be doing if it’s just been so long and now they’re just feeling stuck?

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): yeah. A good question. um with I guess I’ll answer the later part of of that first is what could they be doing differently if something hasn’t been working they might have to start reflecting inward and seeing okay maybe my resume they have to audit right maybe my resume is not as good as I thought and I know that we love to think that our resume is in the best condition right everybody even myself right we can use

 
Giselle Damian (Guest): the help with But it could be an issue with that. Maybe the messaging isn’t clear there. Maybe it’s the formatting in itself that they need assistance with so that it can help, you know, with those um ATS systems. It could be something with that. It could be their responses to the screening questions, assuming that they’ve, you know, had a couple opportunities for that. So there could be a couple of things that maybe they’re doing differently. So, I would just ask questions around that to see if there’s anything that we can change up and try. A lot of it is trial and error sometimes. Um, but as far as the time frame,

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Okay.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): That’s a tough one to answer because there’s so much around that salary, the industry, the title. Um, also the amount of effort that the person is putting in. If I had to put a number to it, as of right now, I would say probably three months to maybe six months.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Okay.
  

Giselle Damian (Guest): This is generalizing, of course.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah. Yeah.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): I have some clients that land a few weeks after that,

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): they receive notice about a layoff, but others rarely in my case, but sometimes individuals can go into a year.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Mhm.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): And sometimes you’ll see that on social media or news, right? That it’s taking people over a year to find their next role. But sometimes it’s intentional for those individuals. Sometimes they’re being very picky, which is okay with what type of company or organization that they want to land an opportunity with.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): So there’s a lot more questions.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): can be picky, right? Maybe they have some savings and they’re like, “Maybe they can be picky.” And if that runs out, maybe you can’t be picky,

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Correct. Yes.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): right?

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): So that just honestly that situation would just make me want to ask a lot more questions to get to hopefully to

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): the bottom of of what the issue may
 

 
Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah. No, I think that makes sense. I mean,

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): be.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): we have observed some who have been out of a job for over a year, and it’s not that uncommon, I would say. And so, I to have, you know, someone who’s coming to you and wanting a job, they’re they’re they’re obviously committed to getting their next position and and so three

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Correct. Mhm.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): to six months in this market right now is probably Yeah, I would say that’s probably a good average. But yeah, um and and it’s I think that’s helpful for people to know when it is taking a little bit longer than maybe they expect to know this average. And then if maybe it’s taking longer than that, you need to do some more go back to that reflection then and and then to the resume.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Yes.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): And then the next thing you mentioned was um interviews I think was the next um and I’m guessing you do do you do some role plays with your
 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Yes.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): clients?

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): I personally am not a huge fan of it because I want to give them feedback at the moment.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Right? If you were to do like a mock interview and it’s like 45 minutes later then we kind of forgot who said what.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): So, in the moment I I’ll just have some questions and I’ll ask them the question and

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): they’ll just kind of give me some thoughts kind of like a draft idea and then we’ll

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah. Yeah.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): kind of dissecting their response and oh that’s a great response or how about you say it like this or you know rephrasing. So I like to kind of go as we go, moving along through the questions.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah. And I think uh if someone is just needing a quick I don’t know quick option for that go to chat GPT and just say what are some questions I might be asked in this interview process and then you know go through that those answers yourself and I I don’t know if some of your clients
  

Giselle Damian (Guest): Yes.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): are like this but I know for me personally I have a hard time pretending. So it’s like oh okay yeah I’m in this interview now that’s not real or whatever. So, I like that style of just like, okay,

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Um

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): let’s just discuss this question and like what your stance is on it. And I think it’s important to to have some of that prepared, you know, because when you’re nervous and you’re in an interview,

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): yes.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): sometimes your mind just blanks, you know,

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Yes.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): and so you just have some of that practice and things that you can refer to, especially things that you can throw in numbers. I know. I know that’s something that employers love to hear is like can you quantify the skills that you’ve you’ve had in the past.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Yes. Yeah, you mentioned it.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): So,

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Uh just prepping prepping and AI. I think it’s a great tool for a lot of things in the job search, but for prepping, I actually have AI step into a personality and a role because you’ll get some of the basic questions, which is great, but the reality is you’re going to be interviewing with a lot of different personalities.
 
 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Some people are skeptical. Maybe you weren’t their top pick, honestly. Maybe, you know, someone else on the panel wanted to interview you and that’s why you’re there. There are some people that maybe are a little bit more cheerful. There’s some people that maybe were a little bit more reserved or closed off. So that’s my biggest tip with AI. If you’re going to use it for interview prep, give it a personality and prepare because reality is not everybody’s going to

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): That’s really good.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): be happy that you’re there interviewing.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): I like that. So, they can pass the generic. They can just type something like pretend you’re a a skeptical um employer interviewing

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Yes. VP.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): me for whatever.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Yes. Yes. Uhuh. Exactly.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): That’s awesome. Um, I know we’re getting a little bit close to the end here, but I’d love to hear if you have any thoughts on um, salary negotiation and just any other final words of
 

 
Giselle Damian (Guest): Yes.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): advice.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): For a salary, a lot of people believe that the negotiation starts when you get an offer, but in reality, the negotiations start the moment that you put a number in your application. We say that because you don’t want to shoot yourself in the foot too early, right? If you put a number that’s too low, then that may hurt you a little bit whenever you’re trying to negotiate uh later on. Or if you come in too high, that’s another thing that people are worried about. Am I going to price myself out? I’m really interested in the role. I maybe would be interested in taking a pay cut for this. So, first would be determining what number am I going to put here? And you can’t do that without doing your research. A lot of times individuals want to go off of what they were last making in their previous role. But what if that company was overpaying them or maybe they were being underpaid?

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): right?
 
 
Giselle Damian (Guest): So that’s not necessarily a good basis to go off of. So we have a couple of sites that we recommend to just research what the salary is for that title with that years of experience within that industry because that influences it a lot to the industry, right? Someone in oil and gas may be paid higher than someone in the nonprofit for example, right?

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Okay. Are there some of the um resources that are free that someone could use if they’re kind of navigating this themselves?

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Yes, there’s a fishbowl glass door that is comparably a favorite amongst a lot of individuals. Salary a salary.com I think is one but you could just start by googling

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Okay.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): what’s the market range for a and then you put the title maybe the industry location and then from there it would pull up the sites right that you can click on. But with anything,

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Okay.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): you have to use your discernment, right? You have to make sure that it sounds right.
 
  
Giselle Damian (Guest): If they’re paying you a million dollars for a role, you know, you got to make sure you Hey,

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Sweet. I want that one.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): I know we all do, right?

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah. Watch out for shams,

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): But you just have to make sure Yes.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): right? If it’s too good to be true, it probably is.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Yes. So then you just figure out,

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Okay, uh within this range, where do I think I fell and then go from there. But there’s other things that you can negotiate like PTO. Sometimes the amount of days that if it’s a hybrid role, how many days you’re going to be remote, company car, there there’s there’s a lot of things that you could try to negotiate,

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): A lot of times uh job roles will also list kind of a range of what they’re willing to pay for that position. And knowing that can help you negotiate before again before the offer.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): right?

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Maybe it’s in the interview where you say, “So what does it look like for someone to make the low end of this range? what are you looking for if you know and then what are the higher qualifications or skills that someone making
 
  
Giselle Damian (Guest): Mhm.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): the higher range would get and that’s something you can totally ask them. So yeah I mean and then if you feel like you’re you’re someone that matches what they were

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Yes.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): saying for those higher qualifications or skills then you can tell them that and that may help you with the final offer.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Yes,

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): I think

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): at the end of the day, you want it to be conversational, the interview, but also the negotiations. You want both parties to be happy, right? Plus, you’re starting that relationship.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Say you accept and depending on how you negotiated, right? If you put the hammer down, then they might see you may,

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): you know, you might not be starting that relationship in the best way, in the best light. So, of course, staying professional, uh, but yes, just having a conversation around it. Hey, can we discuss this or what does, uh, someone, you know, receiving the higher end of this range look like?
 
  
Giselle Damian (Guest): Yeah. So, I I

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): That’s awesome. Yeah. Well, I think we have some really really good directions.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): agree.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): And if you’re listening to this and you’ve been laid off recently, um so sorry for your loss because like you said, it’s a difficult time. And um just take some hope in this podcast and take these steps to land your next position. It’ll come sooner than you think. So, um I think just some good things to remember across this whole podcast, reflect, you know, figure out what you really want and tune your resume to match that and then prepare your interview. There was one in between that, wasn’t there? Between resume and interviewing.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): marketing materials. Was it the like LinkedIn networking job

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Yeah. Okay. Yeah. LinkedIn. Yeah.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): search?

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): And then make sure you’re really prepared for those interviews and you’ll come. You’ll get it.

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Yes.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): So, thank you so much for your time,

 

Giselle Damian (Guest): Yes.

 

Matt & Crista Vance (Hosts): Chel. And uh for everyone listening, check out our next episode and leave a review. And we hope you find your next opportunity. Yeah. Thank you, Giselle. Um and we’ll link to Giselle’s LinkedIn, so anybody who would like to connect with her, you clearly have so much expertise here.

Giselle Damian (Guest): Oh, thank you. My pleasure. Thank you so much.