Matt Vance:  Welcome to the Culture Profit podcast. I’m your co-host Matt Vance. And I’m Your Co-host Crista Vance, The Culture Profit is a podcast series obsessed with one question, How can culture drive greater profits? Today, we’re talking about burnout and Why time off matters with Rilee. Buttars The co-founder and CEO of Donde, the Fintech travel startup transforming PTO culture. With Don Days End platform employers provide their team members a simple and exciting way to maximize their better time on. Thanks for being here with us, Riley.

Rilee Buttars: Thank you so much. It was so fun to hear that from you guys, so happy to be here and I love this topic. So this is great.

Matt Vance: Okay, we just want to learn a little bit more about you Rilee is a competitive problem-solving achiever who somehow convinces others to join the fray her first time abroad was to India and it was incredible, She spent the first two days inside with culture, shock surviving on chips and Diet Coke. But working there changed her. And she left knowing her heart belonged everywhere else. But home, she has spent the most time in Jordan and dreams of driving the desert highway to Waddy rum and windows down, listening to the Eagles. Riley was really cool. Rilee has a sociology, Ms. Traveled, the world evaluating nonprofits and spent most of her career as a project manager. She’s married to her co-founder Tommy and Mom to sparkly Blue,

Rilee Buttars: And now Frida is a little old. I have another baby. Thank you.

Matt Vance: Okay, awesome. Congratulations.

Rilee Buttars: Yeah, thank you. That’s so funny. Hearing that bio because, I wrote it and it’s referencing my Clifton strengths, And it’s like you love to problem solve and you’re very ambitious and you want to achieve things and so I think it’s so funny but yeah, I love how I kind of outlines, my experience with travel and working abroad because I think it’s so important and it’s really defined who I am as an individual and leader, I guess.

Matt Vance: That’s awesome. And congrats on your new baby. You said her name is Freda. And all this, she

Rilee Buttars: Yeah, Yeah. So she’s a 15 or so So one year old

Matt Vance: That’s awesome. Congratulations. yeah,…

Rilee Buttars: Yeah, she’s a cutie. So lucky

Matt Vance: So we want to talk a little bit more about your travel. We know you actually just barely got back from a trip, but with all the traveling that you’ve done? What’s the most memorable vacation you’ve had and why?

Rilee Buttars: That’s such a great question and I tell this story a lot, so I always kind of go towards the India story because that was my first time abroad. And as you mentioned in the bio, it was quite a shock. But I think it’s because I grew up in a small town in Idaho and I always wanted to be somewhere else. I felt like it was too small and it really couldn’t contain me. And so, when I was able to go to India, just like coming off of that plane, completely changed my life in just that moment I joke it was really like Dorothy leaving, Kansas and coming to Oz where it was black and white and that was Technicolor, it’s was transformative and it was the site, the colors, the smell everything was so new.

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Rilee Buttars: And I can still spell it today. I haven’t been back to India since then, but it overwhelms me and it changes me. And so that one is very memorable, even though it’s been since 200 So, a long time I don’t know. I think that experience Was amazing and I want everyone to be able to have that and that’s, why I do I do is because I think that travel can change the world, it opens up our hearts, it makes us more empathetic and understanding and it’s important for us to interact with people that are different than us and that we can learn to see them for who they are and what they offer the world and our place in it. So yeah, I love the power of travel and want to make it more accessible.

Matt Vance: That’s amazing. What a trip and I’m sure it was shocking and just having the going from Idaho to there must have been like, that’s just so different and so it was probably, so just immediately. Wow, the world is so much bigger than where I grew up, And I think having that experience is huge for anyone to just see that it’s bigger than our own communities.

Rilee Buttars: Agreed. I think that’s exactly what it was, where you interact with people and immediately, I felt like, my gosh, there’s so much like me. And that’s what’s hard is like when they look different or They’ve had a different upbringing, right? You think about the differences, but in those moments, I always could think about the similarities. And when I travel, something that I’ve noticed right, is that there are these universal languages where even though we’re not speaking the same words,

Rilee Buttars: We are able to connect on things like music or hand gestures or on the love of children, the love of family, the love of friends or food or soccer. I think soccer is one of those great things. If you can’t speak the language you just play soccer and everyone’s happy and so I found that in my work abroad. I’ve never spoken the language. I’ve always had a translator and I found that there are so many wonderful things that are just human and if we can tap into those then we can connect with people and I think that’s the power of being able to be with them in person and to connect.

Matt Vance: That’s an amazing tip to our viewers anyone who’s traveling Go look for the similarities. I mean, the differences are amazing too, but to find how you can connect with people from all over the world. So I love that.

Matt Vance: And speaking of human connections, this podcast is all about how companies can be more profitable with people first strategies. So, we want to help facilitate a conversation here about how employers can connect with their team members as well. So just kind of set the stage for this next question Rilee. So I’ve been a VP of company culture and at a global corporation. I’ve also helped consult several different companies through company culture, transformations and engagement surveys and everything tied to employee feedback. And it’s interesting that far to date every single time that I’ve helped with an engagement survey, the two top themes that come out of employee feedback is pay number one and PTO number two and I think it’s interesting that it’s so consistent but it’s actually not that surprising because there’s two currencies of value, right money and time. That’s what people care for, that’s why they’re there for a job. And so the fact that

Matt Vance: Your team at DONE is innovating and providing a platform that helps companies do better with PTO for their people is huge. It’s going to make it such a big difference and I’m sure you’ve already seen that. So with that kind of stage set up, I’d love to hear your perspective Rilee, How you feel company, culture, drives greater profits,

Rilee Buttars: Yeah, thank you for that perspective because just a little tidbit on our start. That’s why we started, I had a friend come to me and say every year I ask my employees what they want to do and what they want to accomplish and they always say the same thing. I really want to go and travel here. I want to meet this person. I want to see my family etc. it’s always centered around these experiences and their time off. And then every year I would go back and I would say, did you accomplish it? What did you do? And most of them said, no. And as a leader, I felt stuck because I knew that that’s what they wanted. But I couldn’t impact it in any way and so I think Yeah. Just noticing how important that is to employees is critical. And to your question where you’re saying, What is that connection between culture and profit? I think the first thing is recognizing that those are actually tied together that if you build great culture, then you can have a good

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Rilee Buttars: Profit. And then the answer to that isn’t always obvious because when we think of product profitability and we think of productivity, we often think of production or we think about input and effort. How many hours are we putting in? And therefore, how does that drive profitability? I think what’s important is that we’ve now created culture and structures that support that notion. Okay, so let’s work, nine to five, Let’s work overtime, How do I pay you for overtime? How do I pay you for those hours that you clock in and clock out, right? We have this entire culture of the time that we spend at work. But what’s important is that it leads to a culture of overwork and that’s the norm in the workplace where we treat workaholics like heroes. And we’ve got, now campuses or these offices where we’ve got food and we’ve got gyms. And we essentially created this incentive to stay at work,

Rilee Buttars: Everything is here. All you have to do is work and kind of create that, I guess, ability to never leave. And then we also now have this idea of It’s about the performance of work. I love that phrase. When I read it, it was like we were performing work. It’s about how many emails did I send? How many slacks did I send? And it’s not really about the quality of that but it was the quantity. How many hours am I spending and what am I doing with those hours? And then the last thing I’ve noticed is that, when we’ve got the hybrid work environment, We have these tools that we adopted that enable us to work anywhere and any So At any time, we can write emails at any time, I can work in, my project management system at any time and what that did is essentially turned work into this flood. That’s so exciting our entire life. That’s a quote from one of my favorite academics who studies this and what happened with that flood taking over our life. Essentially, we became burned out.

Rilee Buttars: We had so much stress and work, it never ended and so the boundaries between work and home and time off and time on blurred. And all of a sudden we’ve got this mass amount of people that are experiencing burnouts. And that has led to less productivity, less engagement, higher rates of depression, higher rates of people leaving the office and all of this is happening. We’re asking ourselves, why is this happening? But it really is easy to understand. If we trace that back into what we value, as a company, we value work and the amount of hours that you spend. And so I think for a business, it’s understanding that connection between the culture, the structure that we build and how that ties to profitability and productivity and the factors that lead to that, whether they support it, whether they do track from it. Yeah, that was a lot but

Matt Vance: and that’s quite the response of, seeing this flood and domino effect of work, just kind of taking over everything. And it also kind of feels like from what you’re saying, measuring the wrong performance, indicators based on time and…

Rilee Buttars: right.

Matt Vance: tallies of things, instead of the objective impact that Inputs have on results, so that’s definitely intriguing. And we wonder why we’re seeing so many mental health challenges right at this time where that is the culture.

Rilee Buttars: totally totally. And I think like what you said, the beginning, There’s these two currencies of what you’re paid and then your time. and I think that that’s very sacred to the employee, And when we come to work, we have these expectations of how much time is expected of me and then how can I make sure that I do my best work within that time? But then when we’ve blurred those boundaries, then it just becomes overwhelming and we’re not able to kind of pace our lives and our health around that. So I think it’s really interesting, what we look at in terms of culture. and where we’re at today, the stats that we’re seeing around burnout, and depression, and mental wellness, or lack of mental wellness, as well, as you know, just how that’s impacting productivity and turnover.

Matt Vance: Yeah, I think you’re right on and I also think the way that we work as leaders sends a message, when we send that email at, 1207 pm or am you in the middle of the night or super early what’s the accompanying message that’s tacked on to whatever the subject line is, it’s reinforcing those behaviors and I think leaders have to very purposefully showcase the type of balance that is going to be healthier and we have research to inform what those boundaries should…

Rilee Buttars: Now.

Matt Vance: But just kind of continuing this conversation. Rightly I know you have a wealth of research around PTO and obviously there’s a direct connection to using PTO and minimizing burnout and producing better work and higher quality work when you are at work, how much PTO is getting unused in America. And what’s the impact?

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Rilee Buttars: Yeah, so one of the latest studies done across the US, is that it reported that there were about 768 million days left. inching towards that trillion mark. And what’s interesting is. Okay, so we’ve got a lot of days left on the table. And what does that actually mean for the company? So I guess the last thing was 65 billion in lost benefits to the employees. That’s how it impacts the employee like they’re losing out by not taking those days. And then, that was over 200 billion in company liability because many companies actually have to pay out their employees for not taking those days off. So if an employee leaves some days on the table because the culture, the companies often have to pay out they say you didn’t take that day, Then I owe you days because it’s actually contracted with the employee that they

Rilee Buttars: Are able to take that day. So many companies have that, and that’s a huge budget item for the company. So, I’m really interested in that and actually, how we give the employee the days off and reduce the liability of the company. That would seem to be, I guess, the smartest thing to do as a business, but still it’s quite crazy. The other stat that I wanted to share was that in terms of unused days. So, 2019 before the pandemic it was that 29% of the total allocated days were left on the table. So, if I have, about, I guess 10 days, and I was leaving 29% of those days in use, I wasn’t taking them, but then a post-pandemic. So, in 2022 that number rose to 55%, so that means there were more days not taken than were taken. And that’s so interesting, because, Post-pandemic, right? We

Rilee Buttars: We felt that burden, a lot of us came out, even more burned out than we were and more stressed, right? And now it’s like, Okay, we’re blurring those lines. Even further, we now might be remote. and I think that that’s really telling about what kind of culture we have today, where our people don’t feel like they have the permission or the ability to take the days that are allotted to them. And this is a bad recipe for business. If they’re, our

Rilee Buttars: More days that are even given, post-pandemic, and less that are taken than that’s going to impact. Not only the cost to the company in terms of their liability, but also in loss productivity. But then how it impacts the employee and their mental health and their ability to show up and be really productive. And so I think as a business we need to think about that connection between the days that they take off and their ability to work when they’re actually on the clock and noticing that and taking I guess gestures and meaningful action towards changing that culture.

Matt Vance: And now that is a lot of data and information. I’m honestly shocked to hear that it’s up to 55% of pto days, not used post pandemic. I’m sure you’ve heard the term. What does it mean to travel? Everyone wants to go out there and travel. It feels like that’s not really aligning with the data and that everyone’s revenge is working even though they were working straight through the pandemic.

Rilee Buttars: But also, what’s happening in the realm, and you’re right, there are less days being taken, but people are traveling like crazy. I would just get back from. Okay, so London, Paris, and then I was in Italy and most of these were for work. So I don’t just travel for fun, but I was there for work. And so, these are the cities that are most traveled and there are so many people. Their travel is on the rise for certain, it is very healthy but then you have on the other side companies, And so, I think we need to look at. Okay, how is it impacting the US? Work and work environment, right? So these cities might be more visited by Europeans or those that are living closer to those destinations. And in the US, that’s not really happening. Because the stats, I report are more among the American workforce, not those elsewhere, but then also, travel has changed

Rilee Buttars: A lot of how people take time off has changed because they don’t have the money to travel. The prices are increasing year over year. Now it’s up 40% than what it was. It’s outpacing inflation. And so it’s really expensive to travel and so what people are doing is they’re taking the last days and they’re going on closer trips, they’re taking more camping, more road trips, more four-day weekends, etc. And while that is great, I love that I definitely support it, it really helps, but there is a lot of research and shows like that shows about how to take your time off. What will enable you to really reduce your burnout to lower your stress levels, and be able to return better. And so we can jump into that as well. But I just think it is really interesting. Nobody notices the trends that are happening both in travel but also in the workplace and how that impacts employees.

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Matt Vance: Definitely. And that does lead us to the next question we had for you, which is focusing on those who are listening that are employees, what would be your recommendation of how they can get the most out of their vacation time off,…

Rilee Buttars: Funny.

Matt Vance: and also minimize the burnout. And maybe it has to do some with how they take that vacation time, right?

Rilee Buttars: Yeah, so it’s just important to take time off. So I think if that’s just the base level like take it off, but then if you want to talk about how to optimize it, there are a couple things. So first is the length? 40 work, weekends are great and they’re awesome ways to get out and to camp or to ski or something. You do want to at least take a good long vacation a year. So the optimal length is about eight days and the study shows that gives you enough time to travel. So if you’re going international or you’re going to cross the country or something, it allows you to travel to that location and to start decompressing. So you’re able to get there and then have a day or so where you’re just kind of chill or you’re jumping in and you’re fully immersing yourself. But at least you’ve got that time to arrive. Then you’ve got a couple days where you’re fully in the moment.

Rilee Buttars: Have completely disconnected from your computer and you’re there and you’re enjoying the time and then it also allows you to travel back so they say eight days is about the optimal time for a vacation and this doesn’t need to be every day that you take off. Just I think what we try to suggest is one good vacation a year where you’ve got that eight day vacation you’re fully disconnecting. You’re going somewhere new or you’re going somewhere that helps you relax and to achieve the results that you want. So that was: The other things are some of the aspects that go into how you pay for vacation, how you afford it, and then what you’re doing with your relationship with work. So, the four things that really are important for a good vacation or time off, is it needs to be debt free. So we all know that finances are one of the things that cause the most stress in anything in a relationship and your personal life etc. And so if you’re traveling, it’s not going to be beneficial if you’re putting it on to debt if you’re putting on our credit card. And now

Rilee Buttars: Mean to stretch and pay that over a certain amount of time, right? You’re gaining the interest you’re eventually going to pay more for that trip and that’s not good for anyone. So it needs to be debt free and the way to do that is one to save and then find there’s a lot of trick tips and tricks that I could give in this realm. But I just think the first and foremost thing is to think about the cost of travel and how you’re gonna actually afford it, where you’re going, when to book, and what to do. Etc, always plan ahead. It is a myth that says that you can find the best rates at the last minute. Yes, sometimes that can haven’t, but most often it doesn’t and in the end you’ll pay for more. So, if you want to talk more about affording travel, I’ve got lots of thoughts there. The second thing is it needs to be far away, meaning that I think there’s actual calculation of the miles but we just said far away because let’s think about, If you take time off and you just go to a doctor’s appointment or say you use that

Rilee Buttars: I meant to, go and run around with your kids, doing errands here and there or maybe you do just a DIY project. That is not going to solve your stress. That is not going to reduce burnout. Far away allows you to fully disconnect from your everyday life. And this is important because the tasks and the responsibilities that you have in your everyday life actually add stress to you and sometimes that’s good stress for sure. And we need to do it, but when you’re able to fully go somewhere, where it’s new or say, it’s not new, but it’s familiar and you’re able to settle into that. That really helps the psyche. And so getting away from your everyday to the things that you don’t see. Every day is really important for you just to create that full separation to create space for your brain and for your heart and for your mentality to just let go. The other thing is disconnect, you cannot be checking work on a regular basis in order to fully

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Rilee Buttars: Act from that stress and that everyday life. So you do need to disconnect some, people will say, I like checking my email, I like just staying in the And I think that that’s okay too. It’s not strict. No talking. No slacks, no emails, but it does need to feel like a break. This is the point of taking time off. It’s to feel like a break and so you need to figure that out. Maybe it’s just, you check, sock, and email for an hour on vacation every day or figure out what works for you. But you do need to disconnect and then stress-free. That means you need to plan it. You need to know what you’re doing. You need to think about security, you need to think about, What are the finances? How do I budget for it? Who am I meeting? If you’re going somewhere new, what’s the route that you need to take right there? Does need to be some time spent on what you are doing, where you are going and with whom that you feel a little bit better about the logistics so that you can let go. So those are just some of the things that I think are the tips and trips that we talk about and I think

Rilee Buttars: If you can kind of involve that and address them, then you’ll feel better as you disconnect from work and go on a vacation.

Matt Vance: And I think once a year it’s often enough that you have something to look forward to and in the happiness advantage of the book that I read, that was one of the top things that contributes to happiness is just having something to look forward to.

Rilee Buttars: Mmm of that.

Matt Vance: And I think that often once a year, that eight day vacation, And it’s also not too often that it’s the burden to plan for that. Save for it, all the logistics with it. So I think that’s a great rule of thumb.

Rilee Buttars: Totally. There is a study that came out of. no. I’m gonna mess it up. another lens I think where they looked at the benefits of vacation and they said, Yes point blank taking a vacation is beneficial, but there are a couple things that, need to be kind of

Rilee Buttars: Part of it in order for that to be fully optimized and some of the things that I mentioned before, but one of them they found also that the value of looking forward to the vacation is almost as valuable as actually experiencing it because there was a study also that I looked at last week where it talked about how much you daydream about your next trip and that does create that serotonin, it creates that good vibe where it’s just like, I’m thinking about me being there and that’s having an impact today. I don’t actually have to be in the place to start feeling the benefits. So, yes, if you’re in that planning mode, if you’ve got something to look forward to, that can help with burnout.

Matt Vance: Completely agree.

Matt Vance: So how can they do that? in an effective way, how can they encourage employees to use all their PTO and you have any favorite companies that champion time off?

Rilee Buttars: Great question. I love that I will talk about our customers all day long. I think the first thing is that as a company, you need to realize that this is the deal that you brokered with your employee when they took that job when you talked about PTO, this is what they expect. This is not something that you do only as a recruitment tactic. This is

Rilee Buttars: This is how they will experience your company, It is not a nice to have a PTO is something that everybody wants. It matters to everybody and how you handle it will directly impact how they do their work, but also how they think about your company. So I think that just the first thing is that they will expect to take those days off and when you don’t let them. Then you’ve now broken your promise and that is something as As a leader you can absolutely take charge of and you can do better and then fulfill that promise. So the other thing is just that I think

Rilee Buttars: it’s an opportunity to be taken advantage of there. Is this quote by Sherm? So, one of the biggest associations among leaders said that PTO is, one of the things that is fully not taken advantage of, it has so much potential and it is at the company’s power to do that. This is a tool to create the culture, the productivity and profitability that you want. So use it, tap into it and fully take advantage of it.

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Rilee Buttars: And then, as for that, some of the companies that we work with. We have so many great leaders in the Utah ecosystem, and I was thinking about who to mention and there’s just a couple. So there’s one called Job nimbus, They’re here locally and they’re amazing. They’ve really focused on experiences and enabling that for their employees. So they give a bonus to Don Day every year and they have high adoption among our platform. But what I love most about it is that they announce it every year at a big old hands meeting and they’re usually somewhere really fun when they do it. So they’re not only talking about the future and the upcoming year and where their employees can go but they’re also fully living it. They’re experiencing something together, they’re announcing the Dome Day benefit and they fully just live that ideal

Rilee Buttars: And then we also have crumble. They do a very similar thing where they give their employees a bonus on Don Day to help offset the cost of travel and to fully experience it. But what I love is that they announce it during Memorial weekend. So this is the kickoff of the summer, right? They’re saying. Okay, we just had a really tough winter. We’ve been working really hard and now is the time for you to go and experience things with your family and friends and so they literally give them the money just as we’re about to kick off into the season of holidays and experiences. And so I think they send a really clear message that we want you to have these experiences, here you go. So I love that. And then another one of our companies, Traeger, they’re this really important brand and people love what they can do with their triggers. People kind of gather around it. They have these beautiful meals and they’ve created this culture that is really centered on what they do with the Prager and how it brings people together. And so,

Rilee Buttars: They offer a down day, they do a match. This is something where the employee can put money in the company matches and that’s really cool because they’re helping their employees save. And they’re part of that story, they’re saying, Hey, we want you to be able to do this. If you put a little bit in, we’ll pull it. And together, we’ll work up towards that vacation. So, I love that structure. We also have a company called Lendio that does that as well. And then, one other company is a private school. And, teachers are really burned out, they give so much to those students. And, they are in really hard circumstances and so I think where the school they are really standing out is that they acknowledge that they’re like our teachers deserve more. We want to give them more and so they give a sizable

Rilee Buttars: Bonus into the donde account for these teachers. And I love that because it’s an underserved population of people that are so incredibly important in our ecosystem and they deserve more. So yeah, those are just some of the companies that we work with that really prioritize and communicate to their employees that they care.

Matt Vance: From work. And I think you’re a huge advocate for this and it says it with the business that you’ve started and helping reduce burnout and helping companies know what’s their motivation behind supporting this movement of helping their employees have less burnout helping their pay employees. Get away and ultimately be more productive for their own companies. So thank you so much for being here today. Thanks for your tips on maximizing your vacation and using it to the best of the time off. You have. For those of who are listening that are employees and thanks for all the motivating stats and research behind helping our companies drive a better culture towards list. It was so great having you today Rilee. Thank you for your time and we hope all our listeners. Enjoy

Rilee Buttars: Yeah, thank you so much. I love this podcast. happy to be a part of it. Bye.